ITibrarTof congress. { 









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UNITED STATES OF AMEHICA.J 



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►<«>%»'%'^^'a^ 



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@f a Cn%{it Pissionan) feit^ ^incrians, 



BY 



THE REV. JOHX C. PERRODIN. 




/ MILWAUKEE : O 

ir3:oFnv3:.A.isrisr Bi^OT:t3:ER,s, 

415 East Water Street, 

ISCS. 






Entered accordiDg to Act of Congress, in. the ye-^s iS33, 

BY JOHN C. PEEHCDIN, 
In the Clerk's Oxlice of the District Court of Wi-rccssin. 



PREFACE. 



Why a new book on religious questions ? Because 
errors, if not new, assume new forms in different climes 
and ao;es. The substance of modern heresies is foimd 
in old times, as also the substance of our best argu- 
ments to vindicate truth ; but whilst the devil shapes 
out old errors, in a thousand forms, to pervert immor- 
tal souls, w^e must not be outwitted by the spirit of lie^, 
but expose and confute its w^'etched sophistry. 

Very little experience is required to be convinced 
that the best books vv^ritten in the old world, are not 
exactly what is needed in the new. As skilful mechan- 
ics select tools and methods which are best adapted 
to their use on this side of the ocean, so have I select- 
ed, from different authors, v/hat I think best calculated 
to remove American prejudices, and the best ansvv^ers 
to popular objections. It is not Vvithout fear that I 
publish this little work, not indeed because I apprehend 
to have it criticised, but because I am convinced that a 
religious book, to be useful, must possess a high degree 
of perfection. "It not unfrequently comes to pass," 
says the learned Moshler, "that treatises, which v/ould 
'• even perhaps merit the epithet of ingenious, tend 
"only to render the nge more superficial, and to cause 
"'the most important question that can engage the 



IV PREFACE. 



^'hiinifin mmd and heart, to be fiivoloiisly oveilooked. 
'- Such sorts of writings are entitled : Considerations^ 
'•while, in truth nothing objective was, at all, consider- 
'• ed but mere phantoms of the brain that j)assed before 
'•the writer." (Symbol, pref p. xii.) With a desire 
to be useful, particularly to Americans, I have en- 
deavored to be concise, clear and polite. Controversy 
often leads to verbosity, ambiguity and uncharitable- 
ness. Far it be from me to j^alliate truth in order to 
please either friends or foes, but the purest zeal is al- 
ways prudent and proceeds from divine love. A hostile 
opposition between parties is not zeal but fanaticism. 
'^Let those treat you harshly," says St. Augustin, '*'who 
'• know not how hard it is to get rid of old prejudices." 
(c. Ep. Fund. c. i.) If pamphlets, which advocate 
error, are tmged with bitterness and gall, we are not to 
wonder at it, for bad trees cannot produce good fruits ; 
but truth, which comes from God, is always bright vrith 
the heavenly rays of charity. The best books on re- 
ligion may be ranked as models of chTistian meekness. 
This little work will be welcome, I hope, by Catholics, 
for Catholics, who are well instructed, behold with 
pleasure the reasons which are the grounds of tliei^* 
faith, as landlords love to behold the titles uj^on which 
their rights are founded. " Ordinarily," says Bossuet, 
'' Catholics neglect too much books of controversy. 
" Relying on the authority of the church, they are not 
'' anxious to derive instructions from books where their 
" fiuth is vindicated, and ^\here they could find means 
'• to bring back to the fold those who are separated from 



PKEFACE. 



''us by errors. It was not so daring the Mrst ages of 
" the church. Polemical treatises, written by the holy 
" fathers, were eagerly sought for by the faithful. Con- 
"versation being one of the means which the holy 
" ghost wishes us to employ to attract unbelievers and 
" disabuse the erring, every one endeavored, by such 
'' reading, to render his own useful and edifying. Truth 
'' instilled itself by means so sweet, and conversation 
" attracted those who might have been imbittered by a 
'^ formal debate ; but in order that our polemical works 
" may be read, as those of the fathers, let us endeavor, 
''as the fathers, to fill them not only with a sound 
" orthodox doctrine, but moreover with piety and 
" charity, and as much as possible, let us avoid the 
" dryness, not to say the bitterness, which is too often 
" found in such books." (Confer, with Claude, Adver- 
tisment.) 

The title page of this work indicates the plan and 
means v/hich I have deemed the most natural and the 
most effectual to lead from rank infidelity to Catholic 
faith. We call infidels or unbelievers those who deny 
the revelations of God and the divine mission of Jesus 
Christ. The worst of all infidels are scoffers who des- 
pise every form of religion. Next to them are those 
v/ho pretend to respect every form of religion, but, in 
reality, are indifferent to religious truth ; some are not 
ashamed to deny God, and are called Atheists ; some 
deny the spirituality and immortality of the soul, and 
are called Materialists ; some deny the free-will of man, 
thereby destroying the distinction between good and 
1* 



VI PliEFACE. 

evil, and ure called Fatalists ; the most nuineroiis class 
of infidels are Deists : tliey admit the existence of Gcd 
and a natm-al religion, but they reject the necessity 
and the reality of a divine revelation. Universalists, 
Unitarians, Socinians, Spritualists, Mormons are dis- 
guised unbelivers. There are many other free thinkers 
who are on the road which lead to infidelity, tliough not 
formally infidels. It is my task, in tliis vrork, to attack 
each of those forms of unbelief. 



C ON VER S ATION S 



OF A 



5atliJ)lk gll^^l0tmy|f mtli ^m^fliriii^ 



CHAPTER I. 



IREELIGION. 



There shall come in the last clays, scoffers, walking after their 
own lusts, and saying : Where is the promise of His com- 
ing ? (2 Peter's, iii.) 

The scoffer's characteristic is a deep hatred of truth 
aiid holiness. He is an apostle of impiety, w^hose max- 
ims we must abhor, for wliom we must pray, but with 
whom it is of no use to reason. To dispute with a 
scoffer would be a waste of time and a folly, because 
truth cannot be manifested to men whose mind is not 
calm, and wliose heart is not j^ure. There are, unfor- 
tunately, many scoffers in America. We even read of 
some downright infidels who built a town in Minne- 
sota. The proprietors stipulated that no church should 
ever be placed upon the town plot, on pain of the re- 
version of tlie land to the original owners. The set- 
tlers threatened that any preacher who should dare to 



5 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

come there, to disturb them v/ith the Gospel, should 
be hanged or thrown into the river. They danced and 
got drunk on Sundays, and revelled in all manner of 
ungodliness. On one Sabbath, they made an effigy of 
Jesus Christ, and burnt it on the public street. The 
sink of iniquity, where infidelity had thus thoroughly 
gone to seed, was called New Ulm. Before another 
Sabbath's sun had dawned upon this graceless village, 
the wild Indians assaulted it. The people fled from 
their dwellings in the gTeatest consternation, and stout 
men hid themselves in cellars, wells, stables, and 
wherever they fancied they could find protection. A 
fevy^, braver than theii* comrades, attempted some de- 
fence, and even women, it is said, tried to shame the 
majority of cowards into some degree of strength and 
courage ; but all availed little. The red-skin flood 
swept over the doomed territory ; from one hundred 
and fifty to two hundred houses, many of them of some 
pretensions to elegance, were razed to the ground. 
New Ulm was made a desolation. The dance hall es- 
caped the general wreck, to be used as^a place of pub- 
lic worship by the volunteers who afterwards were sta- 
tioned to hold the place, and within its walls, that 
Christ was preached, Avho, so short a time before, had 
been scorned and insulted there. — (From the Congre- 
gationalist, 1864.) 

It is seldom that a native American will degrade 
himself by sarcasms and blasphemies. Scoffers are 
generally the outcasts of Europe, who have, unfortu- 
nately, crossed the ocean to defile the virgin soil of the 



<i 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 9 

new world. During tlie many years which I have 
spent in the missions, I have not had the sorrow to 
come in contact Vvdth any American who would advo- 
cate impiety. The learned DeTocqueville, who has 
studied with care the institutions of the United States, 
says in his great work: (Democracy in America). 
^' Public opinion pronounces itself in favor of religion. 
^' If the unbliever does not admit religion to be true, he 
"stiir considers it useful. Regarding religious institu- 
tions in a human point of view, he acknowledges 
" their influence upon manners and institutions. He 
" admits that they may serve to make men live in 
" peace with one another and to prepare them gently 
■'^ for the hour of death. He reoT'ets the faith which he 
^' has lost, and as he is deprived of a treasure which he 
" has learned to estimate at its full value, he scruples to 
" take it away from those who still possess it." Here 
is a fact to illustrate the observation of DeTocqueville. 
During a long and toilsome ride with an eminent 
American physician, I introduced the subject of relig- 
ion. The doctor had no creed. He had been a Pres- 
byterian, but he now believed in no chicrch^ could be- 
lieve no mysteries. You deceive yourself, did I re- 
mark to him. Mysteries you must believe whether 
you like it or not. Do you not believe in God ? Surely, 
answered he, I see God everywhere. I see God in a 
blade of grass ; I see him in the leaf of a tree. But do 
you believe that men have sprung up like mushrooms ? 
that the world is eternal ? or do you believe that God 
has created all things out of nothing ? In both hy- 



10 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

pothesis you have a mystery. To tell the trutli, an- 
swered he, I have no distinct idea on the creation. 
God and man are mysteries indeed ! We had just ar- 
rived at a German tavern. We alighted to warm om'- 
selves, for it was a cold w^iuter's day. There stood 
around a blazing fire, half a dozen healthy children, 
who no sooner perceived that a priest had entered their 
dyrelling, than they came in turn to shake hands and 
ask my blessing. How happy are those people ! ex- 
claimed the doctor as we proceeded on our journey ; I 
Vv'ould give all I possess to have their foitli ! Surely, 
for doubt is a violent state of the soul which finds no 
rest, and therefore no happiness, until it is in the pos- 
session of truth. 

Having always avoided discussions with scoffers I 
will end this chapter Vvdth a sound rebuke administer- 
ed by Sam. Houston, of Texas, to a vaunting self-im- 
portant pettifogger in Xorthern Alabama. After an 
eloquent (?) tirade against religion and, Christianity in 
general, the attorney vv ound up with jLhe following : 
yes, gentlemen, the whole system of religion is one 
grand humbug, and its votaries are either monomaniacs 
or poor illiterate deluded beings. It is the poor and 
unlearned alone who are the most numerous of its dis- 
ciples. Why is it, I ask, that the poor man is more 
susceptible than the rich man to religions iniiuences ? 
One hundred poor men will b?come converts to the 
theory, to ten wealthy. Would you have proof ? Look 
around you ; why is it ? I ask. What say you, stranger, 
to the interrogatory 1 said the attorney turning abrupt- 



CATHOLIC I\IISSIONAKY VriTII A:^IFPvICANS. 11 

ly to an eldeily, rather clistir.guished-lookiDg man who 
sat quietly smoking his pipe in a far corner of the 
room. '' What is the reason ? you ask ; why, it is 
'^ simply because the wealthy are too much occupied 
^' with business, the cares and pleasures of life to give a 
" thought to religion. They won't take time to give 
^'the subject a serious thought. One said he had a 
^'yoke of oxen that he vrlshed to prove, and therefore 
'• he prayed to be excused ; another a piece of land, 
'^ etc. The minds of the poor are not thus absorbed 
" with the trash of the earth, to the exclusion of that 
" v\diich is priceless. True ! God has chosen the weak 
" and foolish to confound the wise, in many instances ; 
'^ yet, believe me, not the illiterate alone are so blessed 
" of God as to be the recipients of His gifts and mercies. 
'' The vrisest men, the v>'orld has ever seen, have ack- 
" now^ledged his supremacy, and bowed with a willing 
'*knee. Beware, young man, how you sneer at that 
'* which to secure us a Savior, offered up his life as a 
'• v>^illing sacrifice. Did I not know, young man, that 
'' it was through ignorance on your part that you thus 
" revile, I would exclaim to you in the language of 
*' Paul : O ! full of subtlety and all mischief, thou ene- 
'' my of all righteousness, vrilt thou not cease to pervert 
'• the right w^ays of the Lord f 

Ha ! ha ! ha ! interrupted the lawyer, Iiad I known 
that I had waked up an old methodist preacher, I 
would have taken " time by the forelock," and ''rim in 
time.'' "1 am not a Methodist preacher, sir, I have 
" not that honor. They are a pious, useful, a revered 



12 COXVEKSATIONS OF A 

^' class of people whom I love and respect." Who 
are you then ? insolently asked the attorney. " Sam. 
Houston, sh*5 of Texas." Had a thunderbolt fallen in 
their midst, there could not have been a more electric 
motion in the crowd. 

All do not share the love and respect of Sam Houston 
for Methodist preachers, but all ought to share his con- 
tempt of a scofier, and uphold truths which are the only 
solid basis of liberty, order and happiness. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 



CHAPTER IT. 

INFIDELITY IN GENERAL. SKEPTICISM. FREE THINKING. 
PHIL0S0PHIS3I. INDIFFERENCE IN RELIGIOUS MATTERS. 

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. (St. 
Paul. Rom. L, 22,) 

Unbelievers and infidels reject Christianity. He who 
is indifierent says : Trice o?' false, Ida not care! whilst 
the skeptic remains in doubt or pretends to doubt of the 
existence of God, or of God's rQvelations. Those who 
earnestly desire to know the truth, and to embrace it, are 
not skeptics — notwithstanding their doubts ; nor can we 
apply the odious name of skeptic or infidel to degene- 
rate Christians, whose life is a shameful contradiction to 
their creed, but who deny not the truth. There have 
been at all times, and there are everywhere, weak and 
vv^icked people who, seduced by the vanities of the 
world, distracted by its follies, or carried av/ay by the 
bad examples and opinions of their fellow-men, blindly 
follow the wide road which leads to perdition. They,, 
like the skeptics and infidels, avoid thinking of God, 
to enjoy a false peace of mind. They are on the road 
which leads to infidelity, but, though deprived of a liv- 
ing faith, they want something else than arguments. 
They need a man of God to frighten them with the tor- 
ments of hell, to wake them up, from the lethargy of 
sin and vv^orldliness, to a spiritual life, by the threats of 
2 



11: CONVEr.SATiONS OF A 

a just God, whose love and mercy they cannot forever 
abuse ; they need a sj^ecial grace of God to resuscitate 
their souls by a sincere conversion. As to those who^ 
having once beheved, become indifferent, or who hav- 
ing never believed, are too indolent, too corrupt or too 
w^orldly to occupy their mind with the study of relig- 
ion, they may be ranked with infidels. Infidelity is 
increasing fearfully in the United States. 

The first cause of infidelity, which is common to all 
countries, is pride and iniquity. ''Men loved dai^Jcjiess 
rather than light, for their icorlcs icere evil^for every 
one that doeth evil haieth the light.'" (St. John iii., 
19, 20.) There are not a few Avho are guilty of usury, 
frauds, divorces and unchaste practices ! How many 
patients are under treatment foi* Avhat newspapers term 
abuse and indi&cretio'n. When the will is wrong, the 
intellect cannot remain right a very long time. Guilty 
people naturally desire to persuade themselves that re- 
morses are only prejudices, and by dint of exertions and 
perseverance, doubts are created, take root, fortify 
themselves in the soul, so that death itself cannot erad- 
icate thfim. Many die unable to believe, because faith 
is a gift of God, which is justly denied to inveterate 
sinners. 

Proud and sensual men, vdio hate truth, who hate 
in consequence the high dogmas revealed by God, will 
soon hate and deny the eternal laws of order, called 
moral laics, for all truths, whether dogmatical or 
moral, proceed from God, who is truth itself, and 
are all united in God, as in their source, so that it 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY YvaTil A?,1EPJCANS. 15 

is impossible to deny a single truth, hov/ever theo- 
retical or dogmatical, without attacking all truths to- 
gether, because truths are One, as God is One. I re- 
peat it, when the heart is corrupt, the intellect cannot 
long remain unbiassed and clear ; and, likewise, when 
the intellect is in error, the heart cannot long remain 
pure, so that the corruption of the heart produces the 
blindness of the intellect, and the blindness of the intel- 
lect produces the corruption of the heart Hence it is 
that it often suffices to amend one's life in order to believe 
what before appeared doubtful. Hence it is, also, that 
when the heart hates virtue, the intellect hates truth, 
however abstract or theoretical. It is a met, beyond 
cavil, that all far-famed unbelievers have not been pat- 
terns of humility and chastity. Study their lives, and 
you will not fail to discover that every one of them, 
without exception, has been actuated by pride or sensu- 
ality, 01' by both passions. The shocking pride of a 
Rousseau, the profligacy of a Voltaire, and the disso- 
luteness of a Paine, are well known, but, instead of 
giving examples, I appeal to the conscience of unbe- 
lievers, and to the experience of the reader. 

The second cause of Infidelity is the confusion of 
ideas, introduced by the variations and divisions of 
Protestantism. In every town and village there are 
meeting houses for discordant sects, where black and 
white is preached from the same Bible. The Bible, 
amongst Protestants, lias been made a common anchor 
for religious errors, as well as for religious truth. It 
is the confusion of Babel. Men are at a loss vvhat to 



16 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

believe, and the end is doubt or unbelief. Some retain 
the empty name of one sect or another; they do not 
refuse the customary payment to the preacher ; they 
even lead their wives to the door of tlie church ; but 
they think for themselves, according to the Protestant 
principle. They are Free-Thinkers. Where there are 
Catholic churches, curiosity may lead some Protestants 
to go and hear a Catholic priest. What is the result ? 
Old prejudices may be thrown away, but most Ameri- 
cans would as soon go straight to hell as to join the 
Catholic church. Hovv^ could they keep the rules of 
that church ! 

A third cause of infidelity in America is the turmoil 
of affairs. The American is a business man. Talk not 
of religion to a man whose sole care is to make money. 
His whole soul is absorbed by a new railroad project ! 
His fortune is made ! He must hasten to take a patent 
for a new invention ! Talk not to him of religion ! 
Land speculations, mining, oil wells, banking, fishing, 
factories, foundries, trade, commerce, such is the con- 
troling spirit of America. The temples are not fre- 
quented, and the newspaper too often replaces on Sun- 
days the use of Bibles and prayer books. 

The fourth cause of unbelief, particular to this land, 
is a kind of aversion to things spiritual and supernatu- 
ral. It is thus explained by the learned De Tocqueville. 
(Democracy in Amer. t. 11.) "Every one shuts himself 
'• up within himself, and affects, from that point, to 
"judge the world. The practice wliich obtains among 
'' the Americans of fixins: the standard of their iudji^e- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY AYITH AMERICANS. 17 

" ment in themselves alone, leads them to other habits 
" of mind. As they perceive that they succeed in re- 
" solving, without assistance, all the little difficulties 
" which their practical life presents, they readily con- 
" elude that everything in the world may be explained 
" and that nothing in it transcends the limits of the 
" understanding. Thus they fall to denying Avhat they 
'* cannot comprehend, which leaves them but little 
^^ faith for whatever is extraordinary, and an almost 
6^ insuperable distaste for whatever is supernatural. As 
'' it is on their own testimony that they are accustomed 
'' to rely they like to discern the object, which engages 
*^ their attention, with extreme clearness." He adds : 
''Some despairing of ever resolving by themselves the 
'^ hardest problems of the destiny of man, ignobly sub- 
'' mit to think no more about them. Such a condition 
*' cannot but enervate the soul, relax the springs of 
"the will and prepare a people for servitude." (Do- 
t. 11. p. 22.) Had the learned De Tocqueville visited 
America in the days of somnambulists, table-turners, 
spirit-rappers, mediums and mesmerists, would he not 
have exclaimed : What a change ! But no. It vv^as 
a feverish excitement which is nearly over. Americans 
have already relapsed into the state above described^ 
and the last state is worse than the first. 

A fifth cause of infidelity is the modern system of 
education. Religious training, at home and abroad, is 
neglected altogether, or quite insufficient. Yv'e read 
that Diderot, the Atheist, was teaching the Cath- 
olic catechism to his daughter. American in- 
2* 



18 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

fidels are more consistent. Besides teaching in- 
iidelity by their examples, some raise their chil- 
dren in irreligion. whilst the majority of them at- 
tain indirectly the same, by a complete indifference 
to religion. There are thousands of people, vvdiose 
very names indicate that they are descended from 
Catholic parents either from Germany, Ireland, 
France or other parts of Europe. What are they at 
present ? They have fallen into the abyss of indiffer- 
ence or skepticism. What will their children be ? 
What v>'ill the next generation be with skeptic parents 
at home and schools a la Girard at their doors? 
May God, in his mercy, preserve them from total ruin ! 
The femous Girard College in Philadelphia, may be con- 
sidered as the model of our present school system in 
the United States ; but what a model ! The last will of 
Girard enjoined : " that no ecclesiastic missionary nor 
minister of any sect whatsoever, shall ever hold or ex- 
ercise any station or duty whatever in the said College, 
nor shall any such person ever be admitted for any 
purpose, or as a visitor within the premises appropri- 
ated to the purpose of the said College." In making 
this restriction, adds he : '^ I do not mean to cast any 
reflection upon any sect or person whatsoever ; but, as 
there is such a magnitude of sects, and such a diversity 
of opinion among them, I desire to keep the tender 
mind of the orphans, who are to derive advantages 
from this bequest, free from the excitement which 
clashing doctrines and sectarian controversy are so apt 
to produce ; my desire is that all tlie instructors and 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY A\aTH AMIlRICANS. 19 

teacliers in the college sliall take pains to instill into 
the minds of the scholars the purest principles of 
morality, so that on their entrance into active life, they 
may from inclination and habit, evince benevolence 
toward their fellow creatm'es, and a love of truth, 
sobriety and industry, adopting at the same time such 
religious tenets as their matured reason may enable 
them to prefer." Sublime theory ! to build without 
foundation, and base pure morality on naught. It is 
said that although no clergyman is knowingly admit- 
ted within the premises, daily worship and religious 
instructions on Sundays enter into the course of edu- 
cation. The Bible is read, hymns are sung and appro- 
priate discourses by the President, or some layman 
selected by him, delivered. This is strange, but liter- 
ally true. It has been twice argued before the Supreme 
Court of the United States, that this provision of 
Girard's will, was at war with the Christian religion, 
but the Court has established the validity of the be- 
quest. What Judge Story has decided is carried into 
practice by State Legislators. On account of the mag- 
nitude of sects and diversity of opinions, public schools 
are everywhere established, with a proviso that nothing 
sectarian shall be taught ; but, as all is sectarian where 
there is no religion or church by law established, this 
clause strictly means that everything which relates to 
religion must be excluded from the school room. I 
defy legislators to define what is sectarian. As in 
Girard's College, the reading of some kind of a Bible, 
(a sectarian Bible,) the singing of hymns, discourses 



20 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

from laymen are not everywhere considered as sec- 
tarian practices, but nothing dejSnite is taught, and 
clergymen who are not skeptics or infidels are out of 
place in such institutions. All sincere christians are 
obliged to patronize private schools at theii* own ex- 
pense, and to forfeit their share of the school funds 
and of school taxes. Some persons may call that lib- 
erty ; but I protest against that measure as an injustice 
and a violation of the rights of parents and of the true 
church. Civil society has its rights, but the rights of the 
true church and of parents are paramount to those of the 
State. Our Saviour has said : " He who is not for me 
is against me'' Experience teaches that pure religion 
will not grov/ spontaneously in tlie mind of a child, 
any more than wheat in our fields. What grows 
spontaneously are alas ! ^veeds, thorns and thistles. 
The church of Christ is not a dead body. It has a 
right to be represented in the school room. In chris- 
tian countries, the teacher is an agent of the parents, of 
the church and of the State — a noble position ! In 
the United States, his sphere is unhappily confined to 
profane learning and worldly matters, so that our pre- 
sent system of education practically leads to skepticism 
and infidelity. 

Let not the reader expect to find here a discussion 
with infidels who are indififerent to religious truths. No ! 
The indifferent may have read the Avorks of Gibbon 
and Paine or those of Voltaire and Rousseau, but find- 
ing that old sophisms and assertions are threadbare, 
and that new objections are of no avail, he \A\o began 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS 21 

by boasting of bis reason, reasons no longer. He does 
not say, liear my proofs, but I will not liear yours. If 
YOU insist on any point, bis answer is a sneer. Christi- 
anity is not worth occupying his lofty mind. He is too 
enlio-htened to think of God and serve him ! V>^iat 
hope is there of his conversion ? None whatever. 
Fanatics and bisected heretics have still some strengfth 
and life ; but the pulse of the indifferent beats no 
longer. He is dead ! By rejecting all truths, he 
implicitly admits all errors. He has placed himself 
on a level with brutes, with that difference, that 
brutes are not to be blamed, because they are 
brutes, whilst a reasonable being has to annihilate 
his reason before he becomes a brute, and delib- 
erately stakes his all before the truth of Christianity. 
What a long struggle against his conscience, against 
his reason, against his God has been necessary stupidly 
to lie in that wretched state of indifference to everything 
spiritual, to everything eternal, to everything except 
what relates to this short life ! He has committed 
that sin against the Holy Ghost, which shall be for- 
given neither in this life or in the life to come. If they 
hear not Moses, or the prophets, neither will they be- 
lieve, if one rise again from the dead. (Luke xvi.31.) 
As to infidels, of all grades, who struggle to show cause 
for doubts or unbelief, the following dialogues will 
prove how weak, how frivolous, how palpably absurd 
are their common maxim?} and theories. 

A wealthy gentleman once brought me designs for a 
beautiful Catholic Church. Like Girard, v/ho was, at 



22 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

times, a liberal benefector to churches, because he con- 
sidered them as a means to increase the welfare and im- 
prove the appearance of the land, my kind visitor man- 
ifested a deep interest for the erection of a fine church, 
near his premises. This is a synopsis of our conversa- 
tion : 

Missionarij. — I thank you for your good wull, but I 
am not abie to erect so large a church with my limited 
means. 

Gentleviictii N, — Oh ! we will help you. I v/ill give 
my share. The richest men of our city, are well in- 
clined to help churches. You may rely on tliree thousand 
dollars, 

Jlfissionari/. — How could that be ? Are you not 
aware that fully two-thirds of our business men have 
no religion 1 

Gentleman N. — They do not belong to any particular 
church, but they all believe, as I do, that religion under 
one form or another, is useful in society, and particular- 
ly to common people. All religions are good, provided 
people are sincere in their belief. " 

Missionanj. — The maxim that all religions are good, 
has a double sense. If you mean, that any form of re- 
ligion is better than no religion at all, it is true ; but if 
you mean that there is no religion in the world perfect 
and divine, it is false. 

Gentleman N, — W(j11 sir, I have read a great deal, 
and I have come to the conclusion that there is truth 
and untruth in every form of religion, but I respect all 
sincere believers. I have Catholic servants, and I 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 23 

must say, that those wlio attend to their church are the 
most faithfuh 

Missionary. — It is a good testimony in our favor. 
Now, allow me, sir, to state my own convictions. With 
the exception of a few sophists, all agree that society is 
the natural state of man ; all agree moreover that with- 
out religion society has no basis. If religion is the 
basis of society, God could not fail, and has not failed 
to give us a true religion and to make it known by 
palpable evidences. If there is a true religion it is our 
duty as well as our interest to have no rest or peace un- 
til we find it and embrace it ; and I consider it as evi- 
dent, that all members of" society, without exception, 
whether rich or poor, high or low, are equally bound 
to obey the laws of God ; for God has not created com- 
mon people to be virtuous for the sake of the rich, and 
the rich to form a privileged class free from religious 
duties. 

Gentleman N. — I cannot dispute your principles. 
With your permission I will call again some other 
time. 

Missionary. — You will be welcome. 
Mr. De la Mennais has confuted more at length 
that silly device of infidels : that religion is good for 
common people. '' Philosophers, says he, speak less of 
" the dignity of man, or respect it more. What ! It 
" is in the name of reason and by extolling her inaliena- 
" bie rights beyond measures, that you cooly condemn 
" three-fourths of mankind to be the dupes of impos- 
'^ ture. For mercy's sake^ show yourselves more gen- 



24 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" erous toward your brethren. Let some rays of that 
" light, which shines for yoii in its effulgence, reach 
" their eyes. Do what you please, you cannot leave 
" them for ever in the dark. Mind that it requires vir- 
" tue, that is, strength, to be religious, and nothing else 
" than passions, that is, tueakness, to be incredulous. 
'^ The heart bends with the whole weight of its corrup- 
" tion towards unbelief. Do you imagine that you can 
'^ throw religion to common people, and make them be- 
"lievethatit is for them a necessary restraint; that 
" they vfill put the bridle in their mouth, and let you 
" drive ? How pleasant ! They would toil and suffer, 
" and you w^ould reap. But in your ingenious calcula- 
" tion you forget two things, pride and cupidity. Let 
" it become once the prevailing opinion, that religion 
" is a bug-bear to scare common people, who 
" Vvill be common people ? and fulfill arduous du- 
''ties for the sake of being esteemed a fool? 
" Every body emulating high classes, will strive 
'^ to ascend, by throwing off religion, and repeat 
'' in turn, v/ith a sneer, that religion is^'ood for com- 
" mon people. The great will send her down to magis- 
" trates, the magistrates to landlords, the landlords 
'' to mechanics, the mechanics to laborers, the labor- 
'- ers to beggars — who will drive her away. Like the 
'' messengers of God, mentioned in Holy Writ, Re- 
" ligion, banished from society and expelled from every 
" dwelling, will sit on the cold flags of the street, sur- 
" rounded by a laughing crowd, without a friend to 
*' harbor lier. 



CATHOLIC 3ITSSI0NARY ^yIT^ AMERICANS- 25 

" I appeal to experience : What has introduced ir- 
" religion in hovels ? Reasoning. No, but contagious 
** examples and the fear of appearing credulous. Such is, 
" together with the allurements of vices, the true 
" cause of incredulity. Philosophism must have been 
" exceedingly confident, if it ever entertained the hope 
" of dividing mankind into two classes, the first, of 
" men who should believe for the benefit of phil- 
" osophists who laugh at them ; and the second, of 
" men who would acknowledge no duty, besides fol- 
" lowing their natural inclinations, which the former 
" would have to subdue, to fulfill imaginary duties ; of 
" men who would ridicule what the former would 
" childishly venerate ; so, that, on one side, there 
" would be no restraint, with all that men crave in this 
'' world ; and on the other side, blind submission to 
" prejudices, with all that men hate and fear, without 
" any compensation, but scorn. What a charming, 
" what a wonderful combination ! what a folly ! And 
" still it is what some men admire and believe, in pre- 
" ference to truth ; but nature, whose laws never 
"- change to suit human passions, has once confuted in 
" a dreadful manner, those vain theories which human 
" pride opposes to eternal order. Facts speak loud 
" enough to be heard, by those who are deaf to rea- 
" son.(i-) — [Indifierence t. 1. ch. iii.] 

Infidels of the Voltairian school are not in general so 
sweet-tempered as the above skeptic. I will relate a 

(1.) The auttior alludes to the nrst French RcYOl-ation. 

3 



26 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

conversation with one of tliem. He bad married a 
Catholic wife ; but the poor woman ! to please her hus- 
band, had to kee^) her Sundays in reading novels and 
magazines. Her lord had used all his influence at home 
to make her share his anti-christian bigotry, and used 
his little influence abroad to propagate infidelity. It 
was on one of the beautiful steamers which ply on 
Lake Michigan, that I was introduced to that formid- 
able antagonist. I had the advantage of the posi- 
tion, for when you hear the waves dashing against the 
vessel, or survey the blue firmament over your head, or 
behold the deep water under your feet there is some- 
thing grand and sublime which elevates the soul and 
inspires religion. After the customary shaking of 
hands, we conversed as follows : 

Infidel N. — I am very glad, sir, to become acquainted 
with you. You have often passed by my cottage. I 
will be happy, when you pass again, if you favor me 
with a \iisit ; but you must come as a friend and a gen- 
tleman, and not as a priest. 

Missionory. — A priest, sir, is always a^friend and a 
gentleman. At least he ought to be. 

Ivfidel — What I mean, is, that you must not come to 
preach religion in my house. 

Missionary, — Have you so much religion that you are 
afraid of a little more ? 

Infidel. — My religion, sir, is to be honest, and to 
mind my business. 

Missionary. — Your creed is rather short. A little 
Christianity would not spoil it. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 27 

Infidel. — Christianity ! It was good for dark ages. 
Sciences and civilization have fortunately made great 
changes in the world. 

Missionary, — They have helped powerfully the cause 
of religion. A superficial knowledge leads astray, but 
true science leads men to God and to his church. 

Infidel — Say rather that it leads them to cast off 
prejudices. Who will believe now-a-days that the 
world has been created in six days ? Has not geology 
flatly contradicted the account of Genesis ! Is it 
not now demonstrated that the unity of the human race 
is a fable "? If Adam and Eve were white people their 
children must be white, or nearly so. If they were 
black, their children must be black, with wool on their 
head. No, sir, science is not in your favor. Science 
and revelation contradict each other. 

Missionary. — Far from it. Your objections have 
been often answered triumphantly. (^See Answers. 
chapter vi.) I will lend you, with pleasure, if you call 
at my house, the works of Baine and Wiseman, and^ 
after reading them you will no longer deny that science 
leads to God and to his church. But there is a shorter 
way to settle that question ; it is a well-known fact 
that all learned men in the world, in America as well 
as in Europe, have been the true friends and the warm 
advocates of religion. 

Infidel^ — Were not Voltaire and Rousseau and Paine 
and many others very learned men ? All these were 
not the advocates of religion. Religions, sir, are human 
inventions. They are useful, no doubt, for the ruling 



28 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

powers ; but they are nothing else than impostures, de- 
vised to rule over dupes and weak-minded people. 

Mimonavy. — (A crowd had gathered around us. I 
felt indignant and raised my voice.) Voltaire, sir, is 
no longer an authority, Rousseau was a sophist. 
Paine was a drunkard, very shallow on divinity. As 
to the system that religion is a human invention, have 
you ever thought of the folly that it implies ? Can 
you tell me who has invented religion, where it began, 
and at what time that wonderful discovery has been 
made ? Have you ever thought of the horrible conse- 
quences which flow from that absurd assertion ! The 
first is, that the distinction between good and evil is a 
human invention ; that nothing is criminal except what 
human law defines to be a crime. The second is, that 
supreme wisdom consists in calculating the chances of 
escaping from the clutches of the law. Driven as we are 
by an invincible desire of happiness,an infidel must neces- 
sarily consider as allowed and holy, whatsoever is useful 
and agreeable. His only care will bejto gratify his 
desires, unless prevented by danger or fear. The no- 
tions of justice and duty are no barriers in his way. 
His only duty is to be happy in this life, his only 
justice is to lose no opportunity to satisfy his thirst of 
happiness. Morals, honesty, faith, probity, honor, 
are nothing but vain unmeaning sounds or prejudices. 
Liberty, virtue, rights, are handsome words and charm- 
ing theories, but the human heart is not led by shadows. 
To induce a man to fulfill duties, often painful and 
detrimental, strong motives are required . Whosoever 



CATHOLIC 3IISS10NARY WITH AMERICANS. 29 

despises religion in his heart, and does not confess that 
he would rather let the world perish than perish him- 
self ; rather let mankind pine in distress and misery, 
than to endure the pangs of suffering ; rather see so- 
ciety crushed to atoms, than to be deprived of grati- 
fying his wishes, such a man is either a liar, or an ir- 
rational being. Noted unbelievers, in lucid hours, 
have confessed those fundamental truths. " I do not 
" admit, (said Rousseau, in his letters to Dalem- 
" bert,) that a man can be virtuous without religion. 
" I have held a long time that fallacious opinion, but 
" I am entirely disabused." 

He has written elsewhere against skeptics : '^ They 
'^ affirm that truth is never hurtful. I believe it as they 
"• do, and it is, in my opinion, a strong proof that what 
" they teach, is not truth." (Emilius, t. iii.) 

Infidel. — There is no need of Christianity for good 
morals. If a man violates natural laws, he is instantly 
punished by remorses ; if he trespasses against the laws 
of the land, we have penal laws to keep order in 
society. 

Missionaru . — I deny that remorses, fears and penal 
laws are a solid ground of morality. ( ^ •) 

There are thousands of occasions when laws can be 
violated in secret, and when religion alone can prevent 
crime. Remorses are nothing if we do not fear God 
and the pains of hell. Laws can be defied by force or 
evaded by cunning. Unless justice, obedience and pa- 



(1.) That proposition is proved to evidence in Chap. vi. 

8* 



30 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

tiiotism are held as sacred and heavenly principles, I 
cannot believe that the poor will starve and languish 
in misery, rather than to steal ; that the servant will 
waste his health and strength to make the rich richer ; 
that the citizen will open his purse or sacrifice his life 
for his neighbors and country. Let irreligion pre- 
vail and there is no check to vice, no encoiu'agement to 
virtue, no binding in contracts, no sanctity in oaths, no 
faith in wedlock, no basis for society. All is confu- 
sion upon earth ; the simplest notions of vice and vir- 
tue are annihilated ; the fundamental laws of society 
are trampled upon ; the harmony of political bodies dis- 
appears, and the world is nothing but an immense 
gathering of selfish, cruel, perfidious people, whose only 
law is force, whose only restraint is weakness, whose 
only tie is fear, whose only God is self. Such is the 
republic of irreligious people, should error prevail. 
Hence it is that everywhere, at all times, and amongst 
all nations, whether civilized or barbarous, indolent or 
warlike, free or enslaved, religion has been acknowledged 
as the prop and foundation of laws. Some have made 
religion subservient to politics ; others have made poli- 
tics subservient to religion, but all have paid homage to 
its benign influence. When infidel legislators, during 
the great French revolution, marked the histoiy of the 
world with a black sj^ot, and banished religion, its 
absence was soon felt. The worshippers of reason (fitly 
represented by a lewd woman carried in triumph) hor- 
rified at the sight of crimes and blood, had to hurry to 
inscribe on the code ; '^ There is a supreme Being." 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 31 

Each mdividual, as well as society, is in need of reli- 
gion. Let the cup of sorrow be brought to the lips of 
an unbeliever (and who is free from sorrows, in this 
vale of tears ?) what has he to sweeten its contents ? 
Speak not to him of patience and resignation to the 
will of God. No. When life grows wearisome, de- 
spair and suicide are his only remedies. Short as life 
is, he is bound to make it shorter. But is suicide the 
road to happiness ? What does he see beyond the 
grave ! Nothing but nonentity. Does then his sonl 
rejoice at being annihilated, and after so short an enjoy- 
ment of life, is there nothing to be expected besides 
thorough annihilation ? Our feelings are a protest 
against nonentity, and convince us that the last moment 
of an unbeliever, is a moment of sorrow. Had religion 
enabled him to subdue his passions, had he lived in 
hope of a better life, his enjoyments on earth would 
not have been shortened, and under the pressure of 
misfortune, christian hope would have revived his 
weary soul, whilst UTeligion has thrown a blast on his 
happiness forever. Such are the consequences of a 
system which I term absurd and horrible beyond ex- 
pression. 

Infidel. — Well, sir, you have given us a preaching, 
but you have not understood my position. I am not 
opposed to natural religion. 

Missionary. — Natural religion, sir, is a soft name for 
in-eligion. We must part. (We had reached the port.) 
If we ever meet again, I will give you another preach- 
ing on natural religion. 



82 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

I will now relate a conversation with a good natiired 
infidel, a true sample of a numerous class of American 
skeptics, I had lost my way in the prairies of the far 
West. • At dusk I reached the woods, and finding a 
log cabin, I rapped at the door, asking for hospitality. 
A tall, stout farmer bade me welcome. They had hay 
for my horse and a room at my service ; I felt at 
home. Well, stranger, said my host, after a hearty 
supper, I suppose you are a preacher. 

Missionary, — Something like it. I am a Catholic 
priest. 

Farmer. — A Catholic priest ! I am glad of it ! I 
have heard that there are some Catholic churches in 
the State, but I never had an opportunity to talk with 
a Catholic priest. 

Missionary. — I thank you for your good will, for 
there are many people who are not so friendly to 
Catholic priests. 

Farmer. — Oh ! sir, I am very liberal. There is 
nothing like liberty in religion as well a^ in politics. 

Missionary. — Allow me to ask you, in my turn, what 
church you belong to ? 

Farmer. — I belong to the big church, sir. 

Missionary. — Then you are a Catholic, for it is by far, 
the biggest church in the world. 

Farmer. — Xo. I belong to no church at all. I have 
never joined any. 

Missionary. — Have you not been baptized ? 

Farmer. — Xo sir, never. My parents were Bap- 
tists, but they died before I was of age. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 83 

Missionary. — And bare none of your children been 
baptized ? 

Farmer, — No sir. They are now old enougli to 

judge for themselves. They read the Bible and attend 

meetings on Sundays, when they please ; but I give 

them their free will, for I believe that preaching is all 

humbug. All preachers are preaching for money. 

Missionary. — Whatever may be the case with Pro- 
testant preachers, I can assure you that Catholic mis- 
sionaries are in earnest, and ready to sacrifice their very 
lives, if necessary, for the glory of God. 

Farmer. — That may be, but I have read a great many 
tracts, and I have there (pointing to a shelf on the 
wall) the Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, and 
unless they tell enormous lies, the Catholic church is 
still worse than other churches. 

Missionary. — I am aAvare that the Catholic church is 
awfully misrepresented^ and particularly in the Ency- 
clopedia of Religious Knowledge. That book is a re- 
pository of lies and calumnies against the Catholic 
church. The end of all these calumnies against the 
old church is rank infidelity, for a man who is neither a 
Catholic nor a Protestant is, and must be, an Infidel. 
As you do not believe in the old Catholic church and 
despise the various sects around you, which are, in- 
deed, human institutions, you have not, nor have your 
children, any form of worship. 

Farmer. — After all, my crops grow as well as those 
of my neighbors. 

Missionary. — Our Lord has said that God maketh his 



34 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

sun rise upon the good and the bad, and raineth uj)on 
the just and the unjust. You are all right, as far as 
this world is concerned ; but we must all die, and 
then comes the judgment and eternity. If Jesus Christ 
is God, if he has risen from the dead, if he has estab- 
lished ^ church, and commanded us to hear that 
church, how will it be on the day of judgment with 
people Avho refuse to hear that church, and who deny 
the divinity of Jesus Christ 1 

Fanner. — That is the great point. If Jesus Christ 
is God ; if he has risen from the dead. If — if — These 
are great problems. Some Methodists, in my neigh- 
borhood, affirm that they have seen the Lord, but I 
have never seen him. 

Missionary. — It is not necessary to have seen Jesus 
Christ to know that he has raised himself to life on 
the third day, that he has sent his apostles to convert 
the world, that these have fulfilled their mission, that 
the church which they have founded is still, and will 
be Catholic or Universal, to the end of the world. 
After a long conversation on the vital principles of 
Christianity, my good landlord promised me to make 
further inquiries on religious subjects. He has kept 
his word, and through the grace of God, has become 
a christian and a Catholic. 

Let us conclude that our divine Lord has divinely 
expressed a great truth when he called his apostles the 
salt of the earth and the light of the world, since, 
without religion, the world would be filled with cor- 
ruption and plunged in darkness. Happy, then, are 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 35 

the messengers of peace, who are called by heaven to 
preach and propagate the faith. There is not in the 
world a nobler institution than the ministry, nor a more ' 
beneficial practice than to assemble the people of God 
on certain days and hom's to unfold to them, in a sim- 
ple and solid manner, the rules adapted to promote 
the welfare of society and the sanctification of indi- 
viduals. When orators, in the tribune, with streams 
of human eloquence, discussed the interests of repub- 
lics, they had not a greater object in view, I do not 
say, than the apostles who had to conquer the world 
to faith, than the least missionary and humblest priest 
who teaches religious doctrines and duties. 

How wicked, on the contrary, how wretched are 
the proselytes of irreligion, who ridicule as prejudices 
the most ancient, the most certain and the most unde- 
niable truths ; who give sneers and sarcasms instead of 
arguments, and blasphemies instead of proofs ! Be 
not deceived by their vain erudition. Whatever 
may be their skill and proficiency in human sciences, 
as they have neglected the only science which leads to 
wisdom, they deserve no credit when they attack 
Christianity. Abhor their fatal errors, and, in order 
to oppose their sophisms, study your holy religion. 
The more you will investigate it, the more celestial and 
divine will it appear. Human sciences are the lot of a 
few, and within the reach of a few, but the science of 
religion is the science of every man, who has a soul 
immortal to save and who is called to know God, to 
love him, to serve him, and, by those means, to obtain 



36 CONVERSATIOXS OF A 

life everlasting. Study it, especially, you i3arents5 
whom Providence Las appointed to be the first teach- 
ers of your children ; study it, you christians, who 
are surrounded by infidel neighbors, that you may 
contribute to their conversion, and extend the king- 
dom of God. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 37 



CHAPTER III. 

ATHEISM PANTHEISM TRANSCENDENTALISM. 

The fool has said in his heart : There is no God. (Ps. 
xiii. 1.) 

There are hideous sores wliich a practised physician 
cannot touch without disgust. Atheism is that hide- 
ous ulcer of the soul which saddens and disgusts a 
philosopher and a christian. By atheism is meant 
the last state of wretchedness and folly which prompts 
the profligate to affirm that there is no God. Panthe- 
ism is a disguised atheism. Pantheists take also the 
high-sounding name of transcendentalists. Atheists 
deny the existence of a Supreme Being. Pantheists 
and Transcendentalists anive at the same conclusion 
by calling God all that exists in the universe. Are 
there Atheists and Pantheists'? In other words, can 
a human being, sound of mind and free from odious 
sins, become an Atheist? I believe not. But there 
are, alas ! many practical atheists, who live without 
God, who know God as the philosophers mentioned 
by St. Paul, and who honor him not. It is not im- 
possible that such men might become so depraved as 
to wish the non-existence of God, and so stupid as 
to deny God. Human passions lead to extreme errors. 
In old times, they have led whole nations to Polythe- 
ism. Why not to Atheism ? Perhaps, because Athe- 
4 



38 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

ism being the last of heresies, according to Leibnitz, 
the last degree of corruption has to be reached before 
the human mind loses sight entirely of its Creator. 
Americans are not the advocates of impiety. A cer- 
tain Laurens P. Hecock, D. D., of Union College, has 
sullied his writings with atheistical blasphemies, and 
his flimsy work on Moral Philosophy, has, notwith- 
standing, been introduced into the central public school 
of Buffalo, I have ^Iso heard it said that such and 
such persons were Atheists, but an avowed Atheist I 
have met only once, and he was a foreigner. Strange 
to relate, I met him in a crowd at the ceremony of the 
dedication of a new church. His face was bloated by 
excess in drinking. That man, whispered one of the 
trustees, is an Atheist. I wish the Reverend Father 
would give him a cut. It has been remarked by Addi- 
son, (Spectator, IST. 185,) " that the zeal of spreading 
'' Atheism is, if possible, more absurd than Atheism 
" itself They are (the Atheists) a sort of gamesters? 
'' who are eternally upon the fret, though they play 
" for nothing. They are perpetually teasing their friends 
'' to come over to them ; though, at the same time, 
" they allow that neither of them shall gain anything 
" by the bargain." Judging from the hint of my 
trustee that I had before me one of those wranglers 
who burn with zeal for the most abominable error, I 
implored the assistance of Him who is our life and our 
light and said : Our first duty is to know God, to love 
and to serve him. It is to fulfill that duty that we are 
here assembled to dedicate a new church to the service 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 39 

of Almighty God. As there are axioms in sciences, 
that is, self-evident truths which need no demonstra- 
tions, there is an axiom in theology, and that axiom 
is the existence of God : but, alas, there are men 
who do not know God, who do not serve him, who 
rebel against him ; there are even monsters who deny 
God ! The necessity of a first self-existing cause of all 
things, of a sovereign intelligence to maintain order 
and harmony in the universe, the testimony of all na- 
tions and j)eople, the inward testimony of our consci- 
ence, the horrible consequences that flow from Athe 
ism, cannot fail to convince a soul, free from passions 
that there is a God in whom we live, and move and 
have our being. This church is a testimony of your 
faith, a noble monument, etc. The remainder of the 
discourse related to the ceremony of the day. I was 
in hope that I said enough to silence the Atheist of the 
village, but, an Atheist is not easily converted. He 
came on the evening, with some neighbors, to pour 
out in my presence, his trite objections to theism. I 
only give a brief synopsis of his words and of my 
answers : 

Atheist. — It is easy, sir, to explain a mystery by a 
greater mystery, but, after all, nothing is explained 
Your self-existing cause of all things is more impervious 
to reason than the eternity of the world. As to the order 
and harmony of the universe, there are enough of de- 
fects in it to oblige you to confess that it is spoiled. 
Why ferocious animals and venomous reptiles ? Why 
excesses of heat and cold % Why hail storms, whirl 



40 CONVERSATIONS OP A 

winds, floods, earthquakes? Why abysses and vol- 
canoes? Man, the king of creation, is subject to 
sorrow, poverty, sickness and death. The life of 
many is rather a curse than a blessing. Original 
sin, I know, is your boasted explanation of these 
evils ; but why has God created man to sin ? and, 
above all, why are wicked and selfish people far better 
off in the world, than those who are good and 
virtuous ? 

Missionary. — In answer to so many questions, I ask, 
in my turn, is the existence of light to be denied be- 
cause there are shadows and blind people. The crea- 
tion of the world is a fact. Some Great philosophers 
have asserted that man grew up, like a mushroom, but 
even a mushroom must have its cause and beginning. 
A self-existing cause is a mystery ; a world eternal is 
an absurdity. With regard to sufferings, to death 
and to the imperfections of the world, let us not ex- 
agerate. There are more who run away from death, 
than who pray for a speedy stroke of her scythe. Om' 
wants and infirmities are as many sources of benefi- 
cence and gratitude, and a bond of fraternity and 
brotherly love. From the happiness of the wicked, 
and the trials of the just, the only conclusion that rea- 
son avows, is, that there is a future life, where justice 
will be done. The rich man, who receives here upon 
earth the reward of his imperfect good works, will re- 
ceive, after death, the penalty of his wicked life, and 
Lazarus, who receives, here below, the punishment 
of his venial sins and imperfections, shall go after 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 41 

death into Abraham's bosom. You shall mourn and 
be sorrowful, says our Saviour to his disciples, and 
the world shall rejoice, but your sorrow shall be 
changed into joy, and your joy no man shall take from 
you. (John xvi.) But why crimes and errors '? Be- 
cause man is endowed with free will. Automa- 
tons and inanimate objects can only render unto 
God an imperfect honor. God has willed, and being 
our Creator, had a right to will, that man, created to 
his own image and likeness, should worship him in 
spirit and truth. With liberty comes evil, and with 
evil comes error and Atheism. 

Atheist. — It is unfair to insinuate that Atheists are 
worse than their adversaries. A man can be honest with- 
out being influenced by old prejudices. Our Govern- 
ment is Atheistical, and it is the freest and the wisest in 
the world. 

Missionary. — You are not, I suppose, a citizen of 
our great Republic, but even foreigners ought to 
know, that the President of the United States and 
State Governors appoint a day of thanksgiving to 
Almighty God, every year ; that all officers, from the 
President down to a Justice of the Peace, are requir- 
ed, before they enter upon their duties, to take an 
oath of office ; that jurymen and witnesses are duly 
sworn by the Court ; but what is an oath, but a mock- 
ery of God is a nonentity ? He who denies God is, 
by the fact, disqualified from holding any office or 
place of trust, or giving evidence at Court. When 
laws can be violated with impunity, a good revolver, 
4* 



42 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

or something of the kind, is the only restraint that 
a wretched Atheist will not despise. 

Atheist. — You would, T fear, shoot an Atheist as a 
wild beast, or burn him to death, if you had it in 
your power. It is the consequence of believing in 
God. That belief engenders Fanaticism, which is 
infinitely worse than Atheism, as Bayle has proved 
it. I am in favor of universal toleration, and con- 
tend that nothing but Atheism can bring that bless- 
ing upon earth. 

Missionary. — Had Bayle lived a century later, he 
would have known Atheism by its fruits. France 
has been governed, during a few months, by Atheists, 
and it is well known that a million of Tartars, dur- 
ing as many years, could not have desolated the land 
with more ruins, nor deluged it with more blood, 
than a few of those monsters. " Irreligion, says Rous- 
" seau, is worse than Fanaticism, in its consequen- 
" ces. It does not spill blood, (it has spilt blood to 
'' to the horror of the world,) but it pi^events the in- 
" crease of population by destroying good morals. It 
"' is^ besides, a problem, if philosophy on the throne, 
'' would practice that meekness of which it boasts^ in 
" its writings." (Emil, t. iii.) It is no longer a 
problem. As a true christian, I wish not the death 
of Atheists, but theii' conversion. We must pray for 
all men, even for Atheists, who are at the bottom of 
the abyss of errors, and, perhaps, of crimes. 

Atheist. — Well, pray for me: and he left the room. 
May God have mercy on his miserable soul. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 43 

I have never conversed with pantheists and trans- 
cendentalists. Western people are not up to the over- 
sublime philosophy of Kant, Herder & Co. They call 
God: God, The high-sounding terms of the Great 
Whole, the ^reat Soul, the universal Soul, Im'personal 
Nature, Absolute, etc., are little used on the West side 
of the Alleghany mountains ; but to leave no gap in 
my book, I will give a few extracts from the work of 
the Abbe Martinet (solution of great problems,) and 
from the deep and scientific writings of our best Ameri- 
can controversist O. Brownson, The Abbe Martinet 
concludes his article on that subject by saying, that the 
system of pantheists and transcendentalists is stupid in 
theory and execrable in practice. It is stupid in theory, 
for men are not as they have hitherto had the simplicity 
" to believe, individuals, really enjoying their personal 
'' existence. Their spirit is only one of the manifold 
" forms of the infinite spirit ; their body, like all bodies, 
'' is only a mere modification of universal matter. In a 
" word, the human race, animals, vegetables, minerals, 
'^ all various transformations of the divine essence are 
"■ only forms in which God seeks to contemplate him- 
" self, and to study his own nature. 

'^ Unfortunately these formulas, being the first of a 
" first essay, are incomplete ; and fail of rendering 
" woithily the divine thought. Hence we see, in the 
" eternal author, a continual effort to modify or perfect 
"his theme. The incessant revolutions of the moral 
'* and physical world have no other aim than to establish 
" the supremacy of the idea, by disengaging it from its 



44 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

" ancient forms, and carrying it out to its fullest mani- 
"festation. If these operations are tedious and pain- 
" ful, if sometimes God in order to erase more quickly 
" a page, which displeases him, casts on it some drops 
"of human blood, let us not weep like men of weaker 
" minds. 

"All violent destruction is progress. When God 
" erases so suddenly an ill sounding phrase, it is to write 
" a better one. Who knows if this may not be the 
" last ; if the divine idea, having completely given form 
" to itself, the God-universe may not remain eternally 
" fixed in ecstatic self-contemplation ? 

"It is true that, if before this happy epoch, the 
" guillotine, the bullet, or inability to live longer an- 
" nihilate our present existence, it is not easy to see 
" how we can participate in the felicity of the Great 
" Whole : but, away with selfishness, humanity will 
" then subsist in our descendants. * * * (p. 18 and 19.) 

It is the folly of old pagan philosophers renewed. It 
is execrable in practice, for " nothing is so flexible as 
" the morality of pantheism. To make man a portion 
" of the great whole, without personality, is to free him 
" from the responsability of his actions, to defy all the 
" extravagancies that flit across his mind, and all the 
" desires of his heart, however monstrous they may be. 
" What the ignorant man calls a vice, an evil, a crime, 
" an execrable oflence, is, in this system, always a good; 
" for, in one way or another, it turns to the profit of 
" the whole. Thus a transcendental philosopher would 
" be very much embarassed if he v/ere asked whether 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 45 

"Vincent cle Paul or Robespierre deserved the most 
" from the human race. (p. 21.) * * * * 

" I defy all the worthless libertines in the universe, 
" united in a general company, under the direction of 
" Satan in person, to form a code of more complete 
" licentiousness. 

" Many honest progressive persons, I know, do not 
" wish for these consequences. They are charmed, in 
" the new philosophy, by something grand and colossal 
" which it presents at first to the dazzled mind, by the 
" fanciful unity which it promises to science, and above 
" all by the facility it gives to praise every thing and 
" approve every thing in matters of religion, without 
" imposing the obligation of practising any thing. In 
" fact the different religions which have divided and 
" still divide the world, being formulas, more or less 
" successful of the idea^ there is none that has not con- 
" tributed to progress and which does not claim a share 
" of our homage ; but all of them maintaining their 
" ascendency over the iclea^ none has a right to impose 
"upon us its dogmas, or subject us to its laws and 
"precepts. ***** 

"***** The subtle and inflexible logic of the 
"passions will certainly reveal to them (to the im« 
" mense multitude who can only expect in return for 
"their fidehty to social duties, a morsel of bread,) 
" what you vainly attempt to conceal in your princi- 
" pies, that moral constraint is folly, criminality a ridi- 
"culous fiction, and public prosecution an atrocity j 
" that our sole duty is to use life generously, and that 



46 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

'' our liberty has no other rule than the length and 
" power of our arms. 

"Make this beautiful morality popular, and your 
" Absolute will soon begin to inscribe himself so ille- 
" gibly ; will blot out his characters so often with our 
" blood, that in less than a century the nine millions of 
" fractions of his divine being, which are disporting 
" themselves now, on the surface of the globe, will be 
" re-established in unity — the unity of death." (Solu- 
tions of great problems, chap, vii, p. 22 and 23.) 

The reader who wishes a full and philosophical confu- 
tation of transcendentalism will find it in the excellent 
articles of Dr. Brownson, in the 2d and 3d vol. of his 
quarterly review. In the fom^th number for the year 
1846, that talented writer says : "The transcendentalist 
" evidently struggles to keep clear of pantheism, and 
" perhaps, for the most part, fancies that he succeeds' 
" but having begun by denying substantial forms, or all 
" real differences of nature, and by affirming the reality 
" of only one and the same nature of all forms, how- 
'• ever diversified they may appear, he has rendered suc- 
" cess impossible save in appearance, and hardly even 
"in appearance, (p. 422.) Addressing the transcen- 
dentalists he tells them : " On your own principles we 
" are Gods as well as you, and have the Great Soul 
" underlying us that you have. If you plant yourself 
" on your Godship, we must plant ourselves on ours. 
" Ours, as you yourselves assert, is the equal of yours. 
" Why then are we to yield to you rather than you to 
" us ? * * * * If it is the voice of God, always and 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 47 

'^ every where the same, how can it testify to one thing 
" in us, and to another in you, and why is its denial in 
"you paramount to its affirmation in us." (p. 431.) I 
cannot refrain from copying his beautiful concluding 
remarks. " Dressed up in the glittering robes of a 
" tawdry rethoric or wrapped in the mystic folds of an 
" unusual and unintelligible dialect, it may impose on 
" the simple and credulous ; but to attempt to satisfy 
'' one's spiritual want with it is as vain as to attempt to 
"fill one's self with the east wind, or to warm one's 
"freezing hand on a cold winter's night by holding 
"them up to the moon. Yet, its teachers are the 
" great lights of the age of light, before whom all the 
" great lights of past times pale as the stars before the 
" sun. Men and women, through some mistake not in 
" a lunatic hospital, run after them with eagerness, hang 
" with delight on their words, and smack their lips as 
" if feeding on honey. Our protestant populations, on 
" whom the sun of reformation shines in its effulgence, 
" are moved, run towards their teaching and are about 
" to hail it as the tenth Avater, come to redeSm the 
" Avorld. Wonderful teachers ! Wonderful popula- 
" tions ! Wonderful age ! 

" In conclusion, while surveying the mass of ab- 
" surdities and impieties heaped together under the 
" name of Transcendentalism, and which attract so 
" many, and even some of our own friends, whose 
" kindness of heart, whose simple manners, and whose 
" soundness of judgment on all other subjects, com- 
" mand our love and esteem, we have been forcibly 



48 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

^' struck Avith the utter impotence of human reason to 
" devise a scheme which reason itself shall not laugh 
'' to scorn. (P. 438-439.) 

Appendix. — The arguments in favor of Theism, are 
unnecessary as arguments. It is a folly, has remark- 
ed Voltaire himself, (about the Antihicrece,) to em- 
ploy artillery against a hovel ; but as these argu- 
ments may be useful to raise our soul to God, I subjoin 
them in the form of an appendix : 

1. Know ye, that the Lord he is God, says the 
royal prophet. It is he that has made us, not we 
ourselves. (Ps. xcix.) When I ask myself this ques- 
tion, which every reflecting man must sometimes ask 
himself: How came I into this state of existence? 
Who has bestowed upon me the being which I enjoy 1 
I am forced to answer : It is not I that made myself, 
and each of my forefathers, if asked the same ques- 
tion must have returned the same answer. In like 
manner, if I interrogate the several beings with which 
I am surrounded, the earth, the air, the water, the 
stars, the moon and sun, each of them will answer me 
in their turn : It was not I that made you ; I, like 
you, am a creature of yesterday. In short, however, 
often each of us repeat the question : How came I 
hither % Who has made me what I am ? We shall 
never find a rational answer to them till we come to 
acknowledge that there is an eternal, necessary, self- 
existing being, the author of all contingent beings, 
which is no other than God. (Milner's End of Contr.) 
The slow discovery of useful arts and sciences, which 



CATHOLIC MTSSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS 49 

have no monuments to witness their being known pre- 
vious to the biblical epochs, the avowals of nations 
and societies, which, notwithstanding their pride, do 
not claim but a few thousand years of existence, the 
very configuration of our globe from which inequali- 
ties would have long ago disappeared, had it been 
eternal, in a word, every thing, within and around us, 
gives testimony to the first self-existing Being from 
whom all others proceed. 

2. Our soul is elevated to God, not only by the ne- 
cessity of a first self-existing cause of all things, but 
more pressingiy by the necessity of a sovereign intel- 
ligence to maintain order and harmony in the universe. 
Heavens announce the praise of God, and iSTature pro- 
claims that there is a Being who is wise in heart and 
mighty in thought, who does great things and past 
finding out. Wheresoever we turn our eyes, we be- 
hold order, proportion, measure and harmony. Every 
part perfectly coincides. The earth, the firmament, 
the sea, the elements, all concur to manifest the exist- 
ence of an infinitely wise spirit and supreme Lord. 
From the literary works of a learned man, we con- 
clude to an intelligent soul, from a watch to a skillful 
mechanic, from a fine picture to an artist, from a pal- 
ace to an architect ; will not, then, the magnificence, 
the beauty, the harmony of the creation, will not the 
starry heavens, the fulminating clouds, the boundless 
ocean, the variegated earth, the so well organized hu- 
man body, will not those and so many other phe- 
nomena of nature strike us with a conviction that there 
5 



50 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

is an infinitely powerful, wise and bountiful Being who 
presides over the world ! Contemplate the whole 
universe, those celestial bodies whose distance and 
volume exhaust the calculations of astronomers, the 
numberless stars of heaven, the comets, the planets 
wath their satelites ; have they ever deviated from their 
course 1 And still their relation to each other is infi- 
nite, and their proportions immense ! From the in- 
finitely great, descend to objects infinitely small ! 
Behold, with the aid of a microscope, animalcules 
smaller than a grain of sand. They have not only 
their heads, their eyes, their mouths, their arteries, 
but they are, in all their parts, as perfect as the ele- 
phant or the whale. Behold, with your naked eye, a 
bird in the air, a fish in the water, an insect on the 
ground, a flow^er or a tree ; do they not display the 
power and wisdom of God ? Behold your own body. 
Gallen, after describing that body, exclaimed that he 
had sung a hymn of praise to the Deity. "What would 
he have said had he been acquainted with the circula- 
tion of the blood, and the uses and itarmony of the 
arteries, veins and lacteals ? Seized with admiration, 
we must ourselves exclaim ; Order is Heavert s first law. 
Away with the Vv^ords of chance and accidents. If the 
world, which is a vale of tears, is so beautiful oh ! what 
is Heaven, the land of the living ! 

3. So striking is the voice of nature, so deep seated 
in our heart is the belief in God, that whatever sophisms 
are invented to displace it, our soul rebels against the 
horrible blasphemy, there is no God. The untutored 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS. 51 

savage disfigures the idea of God, but he bows to the 
Deity no less than the most eminent philosopher. 
Enquire from every people, visit every family, enter 
into the tent of Arabians, into the cabin of Negroep, 
into the hut of the Esquimaux, every where you will 
find the belief of a first Being, the father of all beings. 

" An irrefragable proof of the existence of Gods,' 
says Cicero, "is that there is not a people so barbarous 
" or a man so debased that has not a sentiment of the 
" Deity. Many, it is true, abused by vicious customs, 
'^form to themselves strange ideas of the Gods. All, 
" however, believe that there is a power and a nature 
" divine. Now, it is not an opinion which men have 
" communicated to each other by intercourse, which 
"thej have agreed to adopt, an opinion enforced by 
" institutions and laws. In all things, the unanimous 
"consent of people must be considered as nature's 
"law." (Cicero, Tuscul, 1. 1.) 

" It is observable," says the great historian Rollin, 
" that in all ages and regions, the several nations of 
" the world, however various and opposite in their 
" characters, inclinations and manners, have always 
" united in one essential point, the inherent opinion of 
" an adoration due to a Supreme Being and of external 
" methods necessary to evidence such a belief. Into 
" whatever country w^e cast our eyes, we find priests, 
" altars, sacrifices, festivals, religious ceremonies, tem- 
" pies or places consecrated to religious w^orship. In 
"every people we discover a reverence and awe for 
" the divinity, an homage and honor paid to him, and 



52 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" an open profession of an entire dependence upon him 
'^ in all their undertakings and necessities, in all their 
" adversities and dangers. Incapable of themselves to 
^'penetrate futurity, and to ascertain events in their 
" own favor, Ave find them intent upon consulting the 
" divinity by oracles and by other methods of a like 
'^ nature, and to merit his ]3rotection by prayers, vows 
'' and offerings. It is by the same supreme authority 
" they believe the most solemn treaties are rendered 
" inviolable ; it is it that gives sanction to their oaths, 
" and to that, by imprecations, is referred the punish- 
'^ ment of such crimes and enormities as escape the 
'' knowledge and power of men. On their private oc 
" casions, voyages, journeys, marriages, diseases, the 
" Divinity is still invoked, with it every repast begins 
^' and ends. No war is declared, no battle fought, no 
" enterprise formed without his aid being first implored, 
'' to which the glory of success is constantly ascribed 
'' by public acts of thanksgiving and by the oblation of 
" the most precious of the spoils, which they never fail 
'' to set apart as the indispensable right-of the Divinity. 
" They never vary in regard to the foundation of this 
" belief. If some few persons depraved by bad philoso- 
'' phy, presume, from time to time, to rise up against 
^' this doctrine, they are immediately disclaimed by the 
" public voice ; they continue singular and alone with- 
" out making parties or forming sects. The whole 
" weight of the public authority fall upon them ; a 
" price is set upon their heads whilst they are univer- 
*^ sally regarded as execrable persons, the bane of civil 



CATHOLIC MISSION A KY WITH AMERICANS. 53 

'^ society, with whom it is criminal to have any kind of 
''' commerce." (Rollings Ancient History, book x, ch. 3.) 

When atheists consider that the greatest and most 
eminent persons of all ages have been against them, 
and that not only learned men, but all mankind have 
agreed on this great truth, they are bound to admit : 
" either that the idea of God is innate and co-existent 
^^with the mind itself; or that this truth is so very 
'^ obvious, that it is discovered by the first exertion of 
'' reason in persons of the most ordinary capacities ; or 
'' lastly, that it has been delivered down to us through 
" all ages, by a tradition from the first man. 

'* The atheists are equally confounded, to whichever 
" of these three causes we assign it ; they have been so 
'' pressed by the last argument from the general consent 
'' of mankind, that after great search and pains they 
" pretend to have found out a nation of atheists, I mean 
'' that polite people the Hottentots. 

" I dare not shock my readers with a description of 
" the customs and and manners of these barbarians, 
" who are, in every respect, scarce one degree above 
" bnites, having no language among them but a con- 
" fused gabble, which is neither well understood by 
themselves nor others. 

" It is not, however, to be imagined how much the 
'' atheists have gloried in these their good friends and 
'' allies. 

" If we boast of a Socrates or a Seneca, they may now 
" confront them with these great philosophers the 
" Hottentots. 
5* 



54 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

"Though even this point has, not without reason, 
" been several times controverted, I see no manner of 
" harm it could do to religion, if we should enth'ely give 
"them up, this elegant part of mankind. 

" Methinks nothing more shows the weakness of their 
" cause, than that no division of their fellow creatures 
"join with them, but those among whom they them- 
" selves own reason is almost defaced, and who have 
" little else but their shape which can entitle them to 
" any place in the species. 

" Besides these poor creatures, there have now and 
" then been instances of a few crazy people in several 
" nations who have denied the existence of a Deity. 
" The catalogue of these is, however, very short ; * * * 

a * * * * J must confess, for my own part, I think 
" reasoning against such unbelivers, upon a point that 
" shocks the common sense of mankind, is doing them 
" too great an honor, giving them a figure in the eye of 
" the world, and making people fancy that they have 
" more in them than they really have." (Spectator, N. 
389.) 

4. To the testimony of the whole world we may add 
a testimony which comes immediately home to a man's 
own heart, convincing him with the same evidence he 
has of his own existence, that there is an all seeing, in- 
finitely just and infinitely bountiful Master above who 
is witness of all his actions and words, and his very 
thoughts. It is the inward testimony of our conscience. 
Whence does arise the heartful pleasure which the good 
man feels on resisting a secret temptation to sin, or in 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 55 

performing an act of beneficence, though in the utmost 
secrecy 1 Why does he raise his countenance to 
Heaven with devotion, and why is he then prepared to 
meet death with cheerful hope, unless it be that his 
conscience tells him of a munificent rewarder of virtue^ 
the spectator of what he does'? And why does the 
most hardened sinner tremble and falter in his limbs 
and at his heart, when he commits his most secret sins 
of theft, vengeance and impurity ? Why especially 
does he sink into agonies of horror and despair at the 
approach of death, unless it be that he is deeply con- 
vinced of the constant presence of an all seeing witness, 
and of an infinitely holy, powerful and just judge, into 
whose hand it is a terrible thing to fall ? In vain does 
he say : darkness encompasseth me and the walls cover 
me ; no one seeth : of whom am I afraid ^ for his con- 
conscience tells him that the eyes of the Lord are far 
brighter than the sun, beholding round about all the 
ways of men. (End of Contr.) Will you call that 
voice of your conscience a prejudice ? No, for it is 
universal and the rankest atheists have not denied that 
it is a prejudice necessary to the welfare of society. 

5. So horrible are the consequences of atheism that 
atheists are rightly called madmen and monsters. "Men 
are in need of prejudices," wrote a notorious atheist, 
" without them all would languish and die, in society." 
(Correspondence litteraire de Grimm et Diderot.) "' If 
the world," said Voltaire, '' was governed by atheists 
" we might as well be under the immediate rule of those 
infernal spirits, who are represented as furious against 



56 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

theii- victims." (Homelie sur Tatheisme.) The same 
Voltaire wrote elsewhere : " I would not be the sub- 
" ject of an atheist whose interest it would be to have 
" me pounded in a mortar, for pounded I would be. If 
" a sovereign, I would not have at my court atheists 
'' whose interest it would be to poison me, for I should 
'' take antidotes to poison every day. It is therefore 
^' absolutely necessary, for princes and people, that the 
^' belief of a Supreme Being, creator and ruler of the 
^' universe, who rewards virtue and punishes crime, be 
" deeply engraved into our minds." (Oeuvres de Vol- 
■'' taii*e, art. Atheisme.) 

'' An atheist," said Rousseau, '' would rather see the 
" world perish than suffer. He who says in his heart, 
" there is no God, and speaks otherwise, is a liar or a 
■" fool." (Emil. t. iii, p. 206.) Oh ! how true are the 
words of the psalmist : the fool has said in his heart : 
there is no God. Reason is ashamed of his vain sys- 
tems and theories. We have difficulties to solve — He 
has absurdities to devour ! 



CA'THOLIC missionary with AMERICANS. 57 



CHAPTER IV. 

MATERIALISM. 

What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and 
lose his own soul, or what shall a man give in exchange for his 
soul. (Mark, viii, 36, 87.) 

We call Afaterialists the infidels who maintain that 
the soul of man is material, or that the principle of our 
perceptions and thoughts is not a substance distinct 
from the body, but the result of corporeal organization. 
In fewer and plainer words, Materialists deny the exis- 
tence of our soul, as pantheists deny the existence of 
God. Dr. Priestley, who has spent the last years of 
his life in America, has endeavored to reconcile mate- 
rialism wath the christian belief of the resurrection of 
the dead. His singular theory, however unphilosophi- 
cal, may at least perplex materialists by showing that 
their prindples do not necessarily imply an exemption 
from hell after the dissolution of the body. Dr. 
Priestley is a curious exception to the body of materi- 
alists ^vhose aim is to do away with hell and with a 
future life. " I am amazed," said a great writer, when 
'' I consider there are creatures capable of thought, 
" who, in spite of every argument, can form to them- 
*' selves a sudden satisfaction in thinking otherwise 
" (who deny the immortality of the soul.) There is 
'' something so pitifully mean in the inverted ambition 



58 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

^' of that man who can hope for anihilation, and please 
" himself to think that his whole fabric shall one day 
" crumble into dust, and mix with the mass of inani- 
" mate beings, that it equally deserves our admiration 
^' and pity. The mystery of such men's unbelief is not 
'^ hard to be penetrated ; and indeed amounts to nothing 
'' more than a sordid hope, that they shall not be im- 
" mortal, because they dare not be so. -^ ***** * 
"The wretch who has degraded himself below the 
" character of immortality, is very willing to resign his 
" pretensions to it and to substitute in its room a dark 
"negative happiness in the extinction of his being. 
(Spectator, N. 210, by Hughes.) 

Materialists are not numerous in America ; at least, 
they do not trumpet their unbelief. American unbe- 
lievers have found a less obnoxious way to get rid of 
the fear of hell. They are socinians, unitarians, univer- 
salists, and as such, they change hell into purgatory or 
deny its existence altogether. With that consoling 
-delusion, they have no interest to deny the immortality 
of the soul, nor any motive to contradict the whole 
world. Still, now and then, some odd infidel will 
avow that he covets the fate of brutes. I will relate a 
conversation with one of those geniuses. I was travel- 
ing on foot (as a poor missionary) to a new settlement' 
where I had to bless a cemetery, when a stranger kind- 
ly invited me to take a seat in his carriage. I accepted 
with thanks, and thought of Philip, who sat in the 
chariot of the eunuch of Cundace. The parallel was 
not very exact either on my side, or on the side of my 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 59 

benefactor, for I was not a thaumaturgus, and my 
driver proved to be a rank materialist. After finding 
the object of my journey Mr. N. remarked : 

Materialist — They have ah^eady a large and beautiful 
grave yard in that township, what is the need of 
another ? 

Missionary. — They have, it is true, a public burial- 
ground, but it is not blessed and we, catholics, like to 
bury our dead in consecrated ground. 

Materialist — I have noticed that catholics have every 
where separate church yards. I would like to know 
what they gain by it. 

Missionary. — We gain prayers for the souls departed^ 
for we believe that it is a holy and wholesome thought 
to pray for the dead. We believe, moreover, in the 
resurrection of the body, and naturally desire to have 
our remains deposited in holy ground until the day of 
judgment. 

Materialist. — For my part I do not believe the resur- 
rection of the body, nor the resurrection of the soul, 
either. 

Missionary. — Dear sir, you advance strange projDOsi- 
tions. There is no need of the resurrection of the soul, 
for it is immortal. 

Materialist. — I beg your pardon, but I have read of a 
physician who had dissected many corpses, and who 
positively affirmed that he never found a soul in any of 
them. 

Missionary. — There is no doubt of it. The soul had 
left to appear before God. Our soul being spiritual, 



^60 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

cannot be reached by the scalpel of a surgeon, but the 
soul is, notwithstanding, a substance as real as our 
thought is real. It is the principle of our thoughts, 
of our judgments, and of our motions. I have not, as yet, 
met with any man who denied that we have thoughts, 
that we calculate, that we reason. ISTow, as an effect 
«hows a cause, so do our thoughts and judgements 
prove that we have a soul, or a substance entirely dis- 
tinct from material bodies. 

Materialist. — Do you really believe that the old 
system of a thinking substance cannot be modified a 
little "? I am something of phrenologist, and there is 
evidently such an afiinity between the brain and the 
bumps of the head, that I consider the brain as the 
origin of our thoughts. The brain is a mysterious 
machine that j)roduces both our thoughts and motions. 

Missionary. — Let us leave phrenology aside. Let it 
be a science or a humbug, it matters not for our argu- 
ment. I have indeed strong reasons to believe that 
phrenology is a humbug, for knowing that the brain 
floats in water, I don't see how it can affect the crani- 
um any more than a stone in a bucket of water can 
affect the wood or the side of the vessel, but granting 
that the bumps of the head are enlarged or depressed 

Iby the action of the brain, I will ask you, is the brain 
spirit or matter ? 

Materialist. — Nothing but well organized matter. 

Missionary. — It is not then, and cannot be the prin- 
ciple of our thoughts. As a blind man cannot see, 
however concentrated the light may be, nor can matter 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAPtY WITH AMERICANS. 61 

be the principle of our thoughts, however well organ- 
ized it may be. Matter has extension, forms, figures 
and colors, it can be divided and subdivided ; it is 
by itself motionless and passive, but our thoughts 
have none of those properties or attributes. Who has 
ever said that our thoughts are one foot high '^ one 
inch thick ? if we say a deep thought every body 
knows that it is a figure of speecli called metaphor* 
Our tlioughts are not round or square or triangular ; 
they are not black, red or blue ; vio cannot take the 
half, or the third or any fraction of a thought. Final- 
ly our soul is a power which we feel to be distinct and 
independant of all external agents, that power inde- 
pendant and free is our soul, created, as revelation 
teaches us, to the image of God. 

Materialist. — Your philosophy does not harmonize with 
experience. I rely on facts more than on metaphysics. 
Every body knows that mental faculties grow, ripen 
and decay with the body. Let the scull be fractured 
by a sudden blow, and the brain be pressed upon, the 
patient lies without sense or feeling. Let the pressure 
be removed, the power of thought immediately returns. 
In the phenomena of fainting, the vessels collapse and 
the loss of sense immediately ensues. Restore the cir- 
culation, and the sense is instantly restored. On the 
contrary, when the circulation of the brain is to rapid, 
and the organ inflamed, we find that delirium, phrenzy 
and other disorders of the mind arise in proportion to 
the inflammatory action. When the ^stomach is dis- 
ordered by an excess of ardent spirits, the brain is 
6 



62 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

also affected, through the strong sympathies of the 
nervous system; the intellect is disordered and the 
drunken man has no longer a rational command over 
himself and his actions. Thought is therefore a quality, 
or a function of the brain, and as some term it, it is the 
medullary matter that thinks. 

Missionary. — All the facts, which you have enumerat- 
ed^ do not prove your conclusion. They only prove 
that there is an intimate connection between the soul 
and. the brain, but connection and identity are quite 
different things. The body is to the soul what an in- 
strument of music is to a musician. The brain, par- 
ticularly, is the organ or instrument by which the mind 
operates on matter. How they are connected and in 
what manner they affect each other, is beyond the 
reach of our faculties to discover. It is the soul that 
governs and animates the body by its own will and 
reason, so that a great philosopher has defined man : a 
spirit served by organs. The body being a tool and an 
instrument of the soul, whatever affects the body, as 
age, sickness, food, etc., indirectly affeets the soul, (i-) 
There is no more identity between the soul and the 
body than between a musician and his harp. With a 
harp, well tuned and perfect of its kind, a musician will 
produce sweet, harmonious sounds, but with a wretched 
instrument a Mozart or a Bethoven would shock our 
ears. To complete my answer, I must oppose a few 



(1.) If a child had the full u?e of his reason, a cradle would be his jail. 
Parents could not exercise their authority. All would be deranged in the 
world. (Holland, Refi. philos. eh. 7.) 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 63 

facts, to those which you have adduced. There are 
thousands of weakly women whose soul is infinitely 
stronger than their bodily frame ; there are old men 
whose soul remain full of life with a body decayed and 
shattered; there are instances when thought, love, 
anger or sorrow produce affections upon the brain, fully 
equal to those produced by blows or pressure, for ex- 
ample : a letter is brought to a man containing some 
afflicting intelligence, he casts his eyes upon its con- 
tents and drops down without sense or motion. It 
may be said that the brain is disordered, but what is 
the cause of the disorder itself? Is it produced by a 
sheet of white paper and a few black characters marked 
upon it "? No, it is thought that so suddenly agitates 
and disturbs the brain, and makes its vessels to collapse. 
Now, this very action of the thought upon the brain 
clearly shows that the brain does not produce it, but 
that it is affected by it. 

Materialist. — I do not give up. These affections of 
the brain can be explained by mesmerism or some fluid 
yet unknown. Animals as well as men are affected by 
grief, they are capable of gratitude, they have thoughts, 
memory, volition, and yet you will not, I am sure, con- 
tend that they have a spiritual soul. 

Missionary. — What is generally granted to animals, 
is a natural instinct. Whether that instinct is spiritual 
or not, whether they have thoughts or not, whether 
they are automatons or not, are problems which have 
no real bearing on our subject. The difference be- 
tween a human soul and the instinct of animals is suf- 



bi COXVEKSATIOXS OF A 

ficiently striking to preclude all comparison. The most 
cunning animals clo not enlarge their ideas ; they have 
never invented anything to increase their comfort ; they 
do not reason. The monkey, for example, has a ton- 
gue and cannot speak, he loves heat and avails himself 
of fires inkindled by travelers, but he never has found 
the art of kindling a fire or even of throwing wood on it 
to keep it burning. God, in his goodness, has confided 
that powerful element to the only being, who, by his 
reason, can use it with care. A brute can cease to ex- 
ist, for it is not a free agent, and by obeying the immu- 
table laws of nature, it reaches from the moment of its 
birth its full perfectio]i ; but man, the king of the world 
and its priest, (to give glory to God) man reasons, 
calculates, improves ; man has free will, is amenable to 
laws. Must we say that the dread and horror which we 
feel against being anihilated, that the desires and 
longings after immortality, that the thirst of knovrl- 
edge and invincible desire of happiness, which we can- 
not satiate in this world are delusions to torment us! 
Must we say that remorses are a folly, the fears of 
murderers a prejudice, the hopes of the just an illu- 
sion, virtue and crime unmeaning woids; that there is 
no God ! ! for if the just and unjust fare alike after 
death, where is the goodness, tl e wisdom and the jus- 
tice of God ? Man must be immortal or heaven un- 
just. (Young's Night Thoughts. ) I can hardly believe 
sir, that you deny a truth which is the foundation of 
morality, the hope and consolation of the just and the 
faith of mankind. If there is a doctrine, cruel, bar- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS. 65 

barons, abominable, it is the doctrine of materialists, 
who teil the weary laborers and slaves who toil hard for 
their daily bread, suffer and die, it is your lot — it is 
your end — expect nothing better. Hence all nations, 
even savages, have believed and believe in a future life. 
The care which all people have taken of the dead, the 
solemnity of funerals, the monuments erected over 
graves, the universal belief of the existence of angels 
and geniuses, even the superstitious practice to consult 
and interrogate spirits, are as many proofs that our soul 
is spiritual and immortal. 

I had arrived at the end of my journey, in sight of 
our new cemetery. My unknown companion informed 
me that he was a merchant and postmaster at the 

village of B , that he was very sorry to drop off 

the conversation, just when we had arrived at the most 
interesting part of it (the free-will of man.) We 
shook hands and I walked to tlie foot of a cross which 
stood in the center of the ground. There, alone and 
pensive, I brought to my recollection scriptural pass- 
ages which relate to our future destiny. I remembered 
the words of Jacob : " The days of my pilgrimage are 
one hundred and thirty years few and evil." (Gen. 
xLvii, 9.) Those of Solomon ; '- The dust return into 
" its earth, from vrhence it v^as, and the spirit returns 
'- to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, and all is 
" vanity." (Eccles. xii, 7, 8.") The consoling words 
of our Saviour: '^The hour cometh, when all that 
'^ are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of 
" God, and they that have done good shall come forth 
6* • 



66 COXVEKSATIOXS OF A 

^' unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done 
" evil unto the resurrection of judgment." (John v, 
28, 29.) "He that believeth in me, although he be 
^' dead, shall live, and every one that liveth and be- 
" lieveth in me shall not die for ever." (John xi, 
25, 26.) I remembered also the vrords of St Paul: 
"I will not have you ignorant, brethern, concerning 
" them that are asleep, that you be not sorrowful, even 
^' as others who have no hope." (St. Paul, 1, Thess. iv, 12.) 
And finally those of St. John : " I heard a voice from 
" Heaven, saying to me : blessed are the dead who die 
" in the Lord, from henceforth, now, saith the spirit, 
^^ that they may rest from their labors ; for their works 
^^ follow them." (Apoc. xiv, 13.) 

Truly is our life a pilgrimage, since Vv^e are created 
for Heaven ; truly are riches, honors, pleasures mere 
phantoms and vanity. Here, under the sod, all will 
mingle, rich and poor, learned and ignorant, young and 
old. Oh ! what is the immortality of worldly heroes, 
if they have neglected their souls ! The only immor- 
tality, worthy of a being created to the image of God, 
is to be for ever vdth the blessed, in the mansions of 
Heaven. Courage, O my soul 1 a few years of labor 
and soiTow will be succeeded by an eternal reward and 
happiness. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH A3IERICANS. 



CHAPTER Y. 

FATALISM AND ALL ERROr.S AGAINST FREE-WILL. 

Before man is life and death, good and evil. That which he 
shall choose shall be given him. (Ecc'us xiv, 18.) 

By Fatalists we understand unbelievers, avIio main- 
tain that all tilings happen by inevitable necessity. 
Materialists are logically fatalists, for a machine, how- 
ever complicated, cannot be a free agent. The conse- 
quence of fatalism is that God is the primary cause of 
sin, and that punishments are unjust, precisely vrhat is 
needed to quiet the remorses of a guilty conscience. 
The most famous of fatalists has been Mohamed. He 
held, and his followers plainly hold, that whatever hath 
or sliall come to pass in the world, whether it be good or 
whether it be bad, proceedeth entirely from the Divine 
will, and is irrevocably fixed, God having secretly pre- 
determined every thing, and consequently man's ever- 
lasting happiness or misery, which fate or predetermi- 
nation it is not possible by any foresight or wisdom to 
avoid. Long before Mohamed, the Gnostics and Mani- 
chees, in order to give a reason of good and evil, had 
recourse to a divine dualism essentially antagonistic and 
admitted two Gods, one the author of all good, the other 
the author of evil. Some modern unbelievers have re- 
suscitated the system of Manes, and to absurdity they 
have added blasphemy, for the God of Heaven, whom 



68 CONVEESATIOXS OF A 

the ancients revered as the author of all good, they now 
call the author of evil, and the author of all good, in 
their system, is Man, whom they deify by asserting 
that by a series of progressive developments, he will 
eventually obtain perftction. The good friends of Wi- 
clif, Luther, Calvin and Jansenius must not be offend- 
ed if I remark that free-will is as much annihilated by 
their systems of predestination, and their views of divine 
grace, as it is by the system of Manes, Mohamed and 
Proudhon. Philosophical necessarians and the advo- 
cates of " total depravitiP a Huntington, a Samuel Plop- 
kins, a Priestley and others are not rightly judged by the 
generality of American writers. American historians 
and American encyclopedists deal with them too gently. 
It is, no doubt, because the pilgrim fathers have im- 
ported to America dogmas which favor the system of 
fatalists ; but fatalism, far from promoting good morals 
and advancing catholic truth, destroys both. In writing 
these lines, I do not forget that St. Augustine was 
once a Manichee, and that it was he who said: ''Let 
'•' those treat you harshly who are not acquainted with 
i^ the difficulty of attaining to truth and avoiding error, 
'' As to us we are far from this disposition towards per- 
'' sons who are separated from us, not by errors of their 
'' ovvm inventions, but by being entangled in those of 
" others." (Contra Ep. Fund. c. 1.) 

The free-will of man is the most extraordinary of the 
divine wonders and will always remain one of our great- 
est and most fearful mysteries. To reconcile that gift, 
which is the source of our misfortunes and calamities. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 69 

with the infinite goodness of God ; to explain how God 
and man concur in all good works, how man alone is 
the cause of sin are questions of the highest order, 
upon which philosophers and christians of great talents 
have been bewildered. It may be said, how, then shall 
Ave know that we see the light and that others are in 
darkness 1 That we are right and others wrong ? We 
know it, from the testimony of our own reason, pro- 
vided we are free from prejudices and vicious habits ; 
from the testimony of the majority of men who de- 
serve most credit for their vii'tues and civilization ; but, 
above all, fi-om the testimony of the church of God. 
This last testimony which unbelievers consider as the 
least, is the greatest, for I shall demonstrate in the next 
chapter that Jesus Christ is the light of the world, and 
that his church is the pillar of truth. A serious in- 
quiry concerning free will, and the cause of evil, will go 
far to demonstrate the truth of revelation, if I succeed 
to prove that all human solutions are partial, incom- 
plete, and false ; that, what appears at first plausible, is 
afterward found insufiicient, contradictory and absurd ; 
whilst the Divine solution, based on revelation is alone 
adequate, consistent and clear. Such is my aim in the 
following dialogue, which embraces the main arguments 
against fatalists, and the answers to the chief objections 
against the free will or liberty of man. The materialist 

who had brought me to B , invited me to his house, 

after the blessing of our grave yard, with a view to 
continue our discussion. After tea, we stepped into 
his parlor, and he began the conversation. 



70 convp:rsations of a 

Fatalist. — I have been well pleased, sir, with our dis- 
cussion on the spirituality of the soul. When we 
parted, you mentioned free-will. I am not a great 
scholar, but I have ideas of my own. I have read con- 
siderably on that question of free will and I must con- 
fess that the objections made against it have left a deep 
impression upon my mind. 

Missionary. — It seems to me that the reasons iu favor 
of free will ought to have made a still deeper impres- 
sion, for they are quite satisfactory, and of a nature to 
convince any impartial inquirer. 

Fatalist. — To tell the truth the arguments given 
against it are fully as strong if not stronger than those 
o'iven in favor of it. 

Missionary. — Let us then come to a fair discussion. It 
is not necessary to state that there are many things such 
as a great violence, extraordinary fear, invincible igno- 
rance, that may Aveaken and impair our liberty. Philo- 
sophers and theologians have to make many distinctions 
which it is unnecessary to enumerate. What I affirm is 
that we are free in many things, that we_are free agents. 
I will first give my reasons and pause after each of them 
to hear your reply, you wall then give me your own ar- 
guments against free will, and I will answer them fairly^ 
to the best of my ability. 

In the first place, we feel inwardly, that we are free, 
for example to walk or not to walk, to stand up or to 
sit down, to work or to be idle. We can even tell be- 
fore hand, what we intend to do, to-morrow, next 
month, or in a year from now. Consult your own 



CATIIOLTC MISSIONARY WITH AMEPJCANS. 7l 

mind and you will acknowledge that you are endowed 
with liberty of action, as you are endowed with reason. 
For example, we deliberate whether we shall take a 
walk or stay at home, we decide as we please. We 
cannot deliberate whether we shall be happy or not be 
happy, because nature impels us to seek for happiness, 
but at the same time we feel that we are free to choose 
our own means to obtain and enjoy happiness. 

Fatalist. — I have a few remarks to make. Whatever 
we determine upon is the effect of a cause. Throughout 
all nature, the same consequences invariably result from 
the same causes. To use a comparison, our soul is like 
the beam of a balance, it always inclines on the heaviest 
side. So does our soul. It believes not what it 
pleases, and does not what it wills, but it inclines on the 
one side or other by motives and ciixumstances. 

Missionary. — Your comparison is entirely wrong. A 
balance is passive, the soul is active. This activity of 
our soul is precisely what you must deny, if you can 
deny the testimony of your own conscience. 

Fatalist. — Well, sir, let that pass. I like to hear your 
second proof. 

Missionary. — My second proof is that virtuous men 
prefer good to evil, and wicked men evil to virtue. 
The more sacrifices we make to be good, the more 
2)raises and rewards do we deserve, and the farther we 
deviate from justice the greater our guilt. These are 
sentiments and ideas which are universal and natural 
to all men. We may, it is true, make a wrong decision 
and choose evil ; we may be carried away by passion 



72 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

and led astray. We may be too hasty in our judge- 
ments, but remorses follow and give us no peace. Are 
not those remorses a testunony m flivor of free-will ? 
Are they not a confession that we were free to do 
otherwise ? Are they not a reproach to our own self, 
for having abused our liberty ? Could they even exist 
if we were not free ? Is o man of sense will maintain 
that a crime and a misfortune are the same thing, that sor- 
row and remorses are synonimous terms: — the difference 
is too palpable to be denied. If I hurt somebody against 
my will, or even kill a man involuntarily, I will be sorry , 
very sorry, but I will not feel any remorses, were I to be 
hanged on a scaffold. If in reckoning, I commit an 
error to the detriment of my neighbor, and do it in- 
voluntarily, I am innocent of fraud, but if I do it 
knowingly and wilfully it is a sin. You would not, I 
hope, call it otherwise. 

Fatalist. — I might answer that remorses of con- 
science are an effect of early prejudices. But I am in 
earnest. I would not like to deal with a man, who w^ould 
feel no remorses after doing wrong, I confess that re- 
morses of conscience are not prejudices. 

Missionary. — Good and true ! I thought that you were 
too honest to uphold the absurd consequences of fatal- 
ism. Remorses are not and cannot be jDrejudices, for 
sound philosophy cannot call j^rejudices, what has been 
believed every where, by every body. I will now pro- 
ceed. My next argument is the testimony of mankind 
and of God himself. Laws are necessary for the good 
order of society, so necessary, that without laws socie- 



CATfiOLIG MISSIONARY WITH AMERICAN'S. 73 

ty could not exist ; but, if man is not a free agent, there 
is nothing more absurd than laws. If man is not free 
to obey laws or disobey them, it is a folly to praise 
and reward him for his obedience, and cruelty to pun- 
ish him for his transgressions. Oar Lord said : Obey 
the commandments. He has commanded us to pray, 
and every where have men prayed to Gocl. Our Lord 
has promised to the good the joys of heaven as a reward, 
and threatened the wicked with the punishments of hell. 
How cruel and ridiculous, if we are not free ! Laws 
are not made for trees or animals. To throw a man 
overboard with a mill-stone tied to his neck and com- 
mand him to swim, would be a derision ! Laws, human 
and divine, the sanction of laws, rewards and punish- 
ments prove therefore the liberty of man. Without free 
will there is no morality, no holiness, no piety ! Men 
or angels do not praise God more than a stone ! there 
is no binding in contracts, no guilt or shame in crimes, 
no merit in virtues ! Nero was not a monster and Job 
was not holy ! God alone is just and unjust, working- 
good and evil, and is the primary and ultimate cause of 
sin ! ! Voltaire himself has justly said tliat nothing more 
horrible can be conceived and uttered by a man, who, 
instead of worshiping God, would worship the devil. 
(Poeme surla liberte.) 

Fatalist. — With regard to that proof, I cannot do 
better than to relate the answer of a stoick. A ser- 
vant, who had done wrong, pleaded excuse on the prin- 
ciple of his master, that all things are necessary. The 
answer was : if it be necessary to steal, it is also neces- 
7 



74 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

sary to be whipped, and he was whipped. We, in the 
same manner pnnish or reward animals, although they 
are not free. 

Missionary, — The answer of the stoick was witty, but it 
was not logical. As to animals, I have yet to learn which 
of them has ever practiced virtue or committed a sin. 
They are not tried by jury ; nor sent to jails, nor deco- 
rated with ribbons or crosses. You are not in earnest 
when you compare yourself to an ox or a mule. I 
know that some great philosophers have asserted that 
there is no difference between men and animals, with 
the exception of dress. I would, on their principles, 
have a right to reason with them as with my horse, by 
a free use of the whip. 

Fatalist. — A man is a Man^ I understand it well. 
Have you more arguments in your favor ? 

Missionary. — Yes. I have yet to remark that fatalists 
contradict themselves. They reason ; they argue ; they 
beg ; they threaten ; but of what use are discussions, 
exhortations, advices and threats if we are automatons? 
You would not argue with a monkeyTVvith a maniac, 
with a baby. Fatalists argue with men who have will 
and understanding, because by the use of their will and 
understanding men have liberty ; and the more perfect 
is their will and understanding, the more perfect their 
liberty. There is, now a days, a general clamor for 
freedom. There is a universal cry for liberty of con- 
science, liberty of education, liberty of the press, civil 
liberty. Is not that an acknowledgement that we have 
free-will '? Our whole government is based on popu- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS^ 75 

lar will. Our officers are elected by a vote of tlie 
people ; we call ourselves free, but how are we free- if 
we have not the radical freedom called free-will ? 

Fatalist. — Our freedom is more of a shadow than of 
a reality ! There is so much wire-pulling at elections, 
that it is no exaggeration to say that the masses are led 
by the nose. 

■Missionary. — You have not a very high opinion of our 
republican institutions. The fact is that fatalists are not 
fit for liberty. They have to be ruled by Sultans, and 
led by Muftis and Grand Viziers, as the Turks. For 
my part I love freedom and believe in the free will of 
man. 

Let me add that if our actions were necessary, they 
would all tend to our happiness and to our perfection. 
It is only a free being who can commit suicide and re- 
sist the laws that tend to his perfection ; so that dis- 
order and human miseries can only be explained by 
liberty. 

I am now ready to hear your arguments against fi*ee 
will, but for mercy's sake, do not kill me with meta- 
physical sophisms. I have read volumes of such objec- 
tions, and I must acknowledge that I have not under- 
stood them, or that the writers did not themselves 
understand what they wrote. 

Fatalist. — Be not uneasy, sir, I will not talk for the 
sake of talking, but give you in a few words some 
plain and solid reasons against free will. In the first 
place the system of free will does not agree with the 
known attributes of God. I believe that God knows 



76 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

and foresees everything, because his eternal decrees 
are the cause of all things ; but^ if man is free, it is im- 
possible that God could foresee our free contingent ac- 
tions. He could only guess at future events. Besides, 
there cannot be two sovereigns in the universe. If God 
is sovereign, his will is omnipotent ; if man is sover- 
eign in his sphere by being free, God cannot foresee his 
future determinations, nor oppose his freedom by his 
omnipotence. 

Missionary, — The omnipotence of God and his knowl- 
edge of all things are evident truths. The freedom of 
man is also an evident truth, you contend that the 
omnipotence of God is destroyed by the freedom of 
man ; that our liberty is destroyed by his knowledge of 
all things, and that our freedom renders that knowledge 
of God, impossible. Let us examine each point sep- 
arately. The omnipotence of God is not destroyed by 
the free-will of man, for a just man, by making a good 
use of his free-will, fulfils the will of God ; but if he 
abuses his free-will and rebels against God, instantly, by 
ceasing to be the friend of God, he ceases to be sover- 
eign over creation and nature rebels against him. For 
example. Men endeavor to build the tower of Babel. 
God has only to confuse their tongues and they are 
scattered over the earth. 

Our liberty is not infringed upon by the infinite 
knowledge of God, for what is done freely does not 
happen because God foresees it (or rather knows it,) 
but God foresees it, (or rather knov/s it) because it 
happens 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 77 

Our liberty does not render the infinite knowledge of 
Ood impossible, because in reality, there is in God 
neither past nor future. All is an eternal present. God 
is not older to-day, than yesterday, nor will he be 
older to-morrow, than to-day. The words foresee and 
predestinate are not used in heaven, (i) It is a 
mystery, or a truth above our reason, but not against 
our reason or repugnant to it. The system of fatalists 
on the contrary is repugnant to reason, because it de- 
nies the freedom of man, which is attested by the three- 
fold testimony of each individual, of all enlightened 
nations, and of the Son of God ; because it makes God • 
the author of sin, and of all our miseries, and because 
it destroys justice and morality. If fatalists are right 
there is no God, or there is no sin Which of these 
alternatives do you choose "? 

Fatalist. — I do not see how you avoid the same con- 
sequences, unless you acknowledge two Gods, as the 
Gnostics. 

Missionary. — The christian solution of the origin of 
sin is not a mere fancy of the imagination, but a fact, 
as well known as the origin of man. God is absolute 
perfection and goodness. All that he creates is good • 
but he cannot give to creatures all that he possesses (it 
would make of the creature another God equal to him,) 
nor can he impart evil which is not in him. He has 
created us to his likeness, a likeness which attests its 
derivation from him, and at the same time shows an in- 



(1.) How much idle controversy would cease, if philosophers and divines 
would not waste their tin:;e and weary their brains to^iexplain a mystery. 

7* 



78 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

finite distinction between him and his creature. The 
faculties of man being finite, it was possible that the 
human will would resist the will of God, and it has 
happened that the human will has resisted the will of 
God, and thus was sin or disorder, introduced into the 
world. Sin is therefore not necessary and essential, 
but accidental and the work of free will. The efiects 
of sin are ignorance, concupiscence, sickness, famine, 
pestilence, war, death, the deluge, the confusion of 
tongues, and the crucifixion of our Lord. Its last 
effects, when the separation from God is consummated 
^re the torments of hell forever and ever. The origin 
of sin is thus explained without an absurd antagonism 
between two Gods. By this old historical solution, all 
absurdities disappear, all contradictions are suppressed. 
God is one. There is no divine dualism and no rivalry 
between God and man. 

Fatalist. — You speak very much like Moses — only, 
that you have said nothing of the serpent. Our un- 
fortunate father Adam accused Eve : Our unfortunate 
mother Eve accused the serpent. We- have not the 
excuse of the serpent, but it seems to me that he might 
have accused his maker who gave him free-will. In 
plain justice the man w^ho sells poison with a know- 
ledge that it will be used for a bad purpose is nearly as 
guilty as he who administers it. He is an enemy, says 
Bayle, whose gift is bestowed watli a knowledge that 
it will turn to the injury of the receiver. I might give 
other comparisons, but you understand my meaning. 
To be short, I say that if fatalists make God the author 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 79 

of sin in a direct manner, you do precisely the same 
thing indkectly. 

Missionary. — Far from us to blaspheme God ! We 
do not make God the author of sin^ either directly or 
indirectly. All the comparisons of Bayle and other 
skeptics are radically wrong, for man has duties to- 
wards his fellow men, whilst God evidently owes 
nothing to men or angels whom he has created. God 
has given us free-will for good purposes. He wishes 
not the death of sinners, but that they may be convert- 
ed and live. After the fall of Adam, he manifests His 
mercy by sending a Saviour, who being the son of man 
and His Son, has atoned for our sins. Through the 
merits of the Redeemer, he strengthens our weakened 
free-will by His grace. What more could we ask, what 
more could we expect 1 If you say, why has he given 
me free-wiin. Why has he created me a man, and not 
a brute "? Why has he created me at all "l I answer 
that we have no right to question God. He has creat- 
ed us for heaven, and if we choose hell, it is our own 
fault and folly. Shall you blame a father, says St. 
Theophilus of Antioch, for giving orders to his son, 
and punishing him if he despise them. God is just 
and merciful. Although sin is a supreme disorder it is 
in God's power to bring order out of disorder. Far 
from restraining the exercise of God's justice and 
mercy, sin serves to exhibit new manifestations of 
these atributes. The sovereign evil, was in a manner 
necessary to procure the sovereign good of the incar- 
nation of the Son of God. During time, the mercy of 



80 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Ood manifests itself more than his justice, but when 
time will be no more, God will exhibit the fullness of 
his mercy, in favor of his friends in heaven, and the 
fullness of his justice in hell against the reprobates. 
^' He that could have transgressed and hath not trans- 
gressed, and could do evil things, and hath not done 
them, he shall have glory everlasting." (Eccles'us 
xxxi. 10.) To resume in a few words ; God is sover- 
eign and man is free. It is a mystery, but to deny one 
or both of these truths, is contrary to reason, and to 
divine revelation. 

Fatalist. — I will reflect seriously on what you have 
said. I am thankful for your explanations. I am not 
so taken up with the things of this world as to be in- 
different to what is eternal. I am weary of doubts and 
feel that it is time to make up my mind. 

Missionary. — Do it in earnest. We are ioithis world to 
serve God, but we are free to rebel against God. We 
may choose and must choose between obedience and 
disobedience, and as a consequence between heaven or 
hell. He who is not with me, says our Lord, is against 
me, and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. 
(Luke, xi. 23.) I have been reading to-day a passage 
which elucidates this truth. The author says. " We 
^' must be the servants of God or the servants of evil. 
" There is no man whatever, wliether he knows it or 
'^ not, who is not enlisted in this conflict, no one who has 
*' not an active share in the responsibility of defeat or 
" victory. All are alike engaged in this struggle ; the 
" galley-slave in his chains, and the king upon his 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 81 

'' throne ; the poor and the rich, the healthy and the 

"•' sick, the wise and the foolish, the captive and the 

" free, the old and the young, the civilized and the sav- 

" age. Every word that is uttered is inspired either by 

^' the world or by God ; and forcibly proclaims, either 

" implicitly or explicitly, but always distinctly either 

'' the glory of the one or the triumph of the other. All 

" are constrained to enlist in this strange army in which 

" no substitutes nor voluntary enlistments are allowed, 

" nor any exception made for old age. None among 

" this soldiery may say ; I am the son of a poor wid- 

" dow, or the mother of a paralytic, or the wife of a 

" cripple. All mankind, alike, belong to this strange 
"army. Nor is any permitted to say that he is not 

" disposed to combat, and it is easy to perceive to which 

" side he inclines ; because, by this very declaration, he 

" plainly betrays his inclinations. Nor can any one 

" declare that he is neutral, because if he wishes to be 

" so, he is already enlisted ; nor c an he reiterate that he 

" will continue indifferent, for by these very words, he 

" clearly indicates which side he embraces. Let no one 

" seek to avoid the perils of this war, for he will do so 

" in vain. This war extends throughout space and 

" will last to the end of time. Only in eternity, the 

" home of the just, can rest be found, because then 

" alone the combat ceases. Nor will the gates of hea- 

" veil open to receive any who cannot show that they 

" have suffered in this conflict. Those portals are 

" closed against all who do not here b^low, bravely 



82 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

'' fisfht the battles of the Lord and like him bear the 
" cross. (Essay on Cath. by Cortes, p. 115.) 

Fatalist. — Will you have the kindness to lend me that 
book. 

Missionaj^y. — With the greatest pleasure. We then 
conversed on other topics. 



CATKOLIC MISSIONARY AVITH AMERICANS. 83 



CHAPTER YI. 

DEISM. RATIONALISM. SECRET SOCIETIES. 

If any man love not our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be ana- 
thema, Maran Atha. (2 Cor. xyi, 22.) 

This chapter is divided into six articles. 

Article 1, Origin and history of Deism. 

Infidelity is the ultimate term of religious errors, and 
catholicity, the term of religious truth. Americans, 
who are not men to stop halfway, in any direction, will, 
out of necessity, become sound catholics or consummate 
infidels. On one side is Christianity and catholicity ; 
on the other side deism and rationalism. Americans 
will surely adopt and be led, by logical inductions, to 
one or the other extreme, to the plenitude of truth, 
or the plenitude of error. 

The name of deist and rationalist is now given to infi- 
dels who aflirm the sufficiency of reason, and of a natural 
religion ; who reject revelation as unnecessary and su- 
perfluous. The first revelation of God to man took 
place in the garden of Eden, and it is there also that 
we find the first revelation of the devil and the begin- 
ing of infidelity. Ever since the transgression of our 
first parents, there has been at the bottom of the human 
heart a secret opposition to truth, because truth re- 
strains our corrupt inclinations, and humbles our pride. 
That conflict between truth and error, between good 



81 convp:rsations of a 

and evil, is a mystery which no human philosophy can 
explain. When Christianity appeared, error and evil 
had prevailed, perhaps as extensively as at the time of 
the deluge. Tliere remained outside of Judea, but a 
phantom of religion. Sensuality was so prevalent, tha^j 
by a strange confusion of ideas and abuse of terms 
sensuality and virtue (voluptas-virtus) became synon- 
imous. How blind, how deceitful are the writers, who 
see nothing in the progress of Christianity, but natural 
causes ! What had Christianity to substitute for the 
pomps of pagan festivals, to the worshij) of human 
passions, to the lax code of morality of heathens, to 
their old and popular mythology embellished by the 
verses of the poets, and enlivened by the sculptor's 
chisel ? Nothing but Jesus Christ crucified, an austere 
worship, a penitential life and an absolute self-denial. 
Behold people, priests, emperors all unite to crush the 
enemy of idols. During three centuries, christians are 
imprisoned, drowned, burnt, beheaded, racked, tortured, 
thrown to wild animals for the amusement of the multi- 
tude, who gather in crowds to see their blood spilt at 
the public games and enjoy the agony of martyrs. New 
tortures are invented by lascivious tyrants, against 
virgins and infants. But lo ! the executioners are weary. 
The world is converted and the Roman emperors adorn 
their diadem with the cross. 

How has Christianity conquered ? How has it over- 
come so much hatred and power "? By a passive re- 
sistance and a supernatural fortitude. To the brutal 
outward persecution of pagans, succeeds the persecu- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 85 

tion of sophists, for the power of truth, however, irre- 
sistible on the intellect, does not prevent the opposition 
of a perverted will. Although struck by evidence, 
man remains free to rebel against his own conviction, 
and to deny what is undeniable. Dreadful liberty ! 
which is a palpable proof of the corruption of our na- 
ture, and at the same time the reason of the trials which 
religion has to withstand. Always agitated by storms 
it is her destiny, as that of man, never to enjoy upon 
earth a perfect j)eace. Pride, avarice, lust, all passions 
combine to wage a fierce war against her. '- Remem- 
ber my word, said Jesus Christ, the servant is not 
greater than his Lord, if they have persecuted me they 
will also persecute you. (John x, 20.) Heresy, at times 
weak and timid, at other times arrogant and audacious 
assumes every form, employs every means to destroy 
her dogmas, but the church, unchangable in her doc- 
trines sees sect after sect, expiring at her feet. A spirit 
of independance and ambition creates divisions and 
schisms in her bosom, but new conversions console her 
for the loss of disobedient children : proud potentates 
assail her rights and boldly attack her divine hierarchy, 
but notwithstanding their violence and cunning, her 
government subsists, victorious and unchanged amidst 
the vicissitude, and fall of crowns and empires. Is the 
contest over ? No. The enemies of the church, unable 
to batter the walls of the house of God, now seek to 
undermine its foundation. Divided on every point, 
they unite to destroy the basis of all truth, which is the 
authority of the church. Their cry is first, reformation. 



86 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Then it is, Progress, Philosophy, Liberty I Destruc- 
tion follows destruction. The supremacy of the Pope, 
the Episcopacy, the sacraments, the old and ne\y sym- 
bols of faith, the immortality of the soul, all is reformed 
and disappears. Melanchton, who had witnessed the 
first disputes of protestants had foreseen with terror, 
that no truth, no dogma would be respected by innova- 
tors. (Lib. iv, Ep. xiv,) The founders of protestant- 
ism were agitate:! by presentiments of atrocious wars of 
opinions : Good God, exclaimed Melanchton, what tra- 
gedy will posterity w^itness * * * ! (Hist, of Var. b. v.) 
But Luther had given the fatal impulse. The right of 
inquiiy or the sovereignty of reason in matters of faith, 
called by the first reformers, the holy evangelical liber- 
ty, w^as visibly working the destruction of the Gospel. 
One century later, the poison of Deism was circulat- 
ing freely in the veins of reformers. Some protested 
and sought for a remedy to check the evil, but in vain. 
The tree w^as bearing its fruit, and was suflFered to grow. 
It may be said that infidelity abounds as much in catho- 
lic as in protestant countries : witness the Illuminatis of 
Bavaria, the Carlonaris of Italy, the Socialists of France ! 
Now, let the reader mark the difierence. When a 
catholic becomes a Deist, he abjures his principles, but 
when a protestant does the same, he follows his own. 
Infidelity springs out of the very roots of protestant- 
ism ; it is a natural and necessary development of its 
doctrines, it differs from the latter, not in essence but 
in degree, so that Lutherans, Socinians, Deists and 
Atheists are not four, but one enemy and their systems 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 87 

are only a gradual and systematical progress of errors. 

History corroborates the same conclusion. Jurieu, 
himself a protestant, relates that the refugees in Hol- 
landj after the revocation of the edict of Kantes were 
plotting against Christianity. (Tabl. du Soc. 1. 1, p. 5.) 
The testimony is not equivocal. Protestantism has 
never ceased to supply recruits for the war against reve- 
lation. Bayle was a protestant, Rousseau, born a prot- 
estant has only carried to a greater length than Calvin, 
the protestant principle. The most noted English Deists, 
from whom Voltaire and his disciples have borrowed 
their anti-christian knowledge were all protestants, full- 
grown protestants. 

The first protestant country has been also the first to 
harbor anti-christian principles. In the German prot- 
estant churches, we see men holding important offices 
" in the church, pastors of congregations, superintend- 
" ants of consistories, professors of theology, who not 
" only reject the authority of the symbolical books, and 
" disavow almost all those catholic dogmas which the 
" Lutherans and Calvinists had hitherto retained, but 
" openly assail the divine inspiration of the scriptures, 
'^ deny the integrity and authority of a large portion of 
" the old and new testaments, allegorize the prophecies 
'^ and disbelieve and sometimes even ridicule the mira- 
" cles recorded in the Bible. These opinions, professed 
" more or less openly, carried out to a greater or less 
'' extent, were once held, by an immense majority of 
" protestant theologians, and even despite of a par- 
^' tial reaction, are still held by the greatest part. Yet 



88 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" tliey, nevertheless retain their functions and dignities 
" in the protestant church. They are thus enabled to 
" propagate their doctrines with impunity ; those prot- 
" estants who protest against their opinions, still com- 
" municate with them in sacris and when any attempt 
" has been made to deprive them of their offices, it has 
" been invariably unsuccessful. Against their orthodox 
^' opponents they invariably appeal to the right of free 
" inquiry, which is the fundamental principle of the re- 
'^ formation and on protestant ground, the position 
^' they take up is perfectly impregnable. * * * * ^ 
^' The vampire of rationalism, while it cleaves to the 
'' bosom and sucks the life blood of the German prot- 
" estant church, mocks with a fiend-like sneer her im- 
" potent efforts to throw off the monster, efforts which 
'^ will never be attended with success, till the aid of the 
" old mother church be called in. (Symbolism, memoirs 
" of Moehler, p. 27 and 28.) The German literature of 
the 18th century as a whole, if not always hostile, was at 
least entirely foreign to the spirit of Christianity. In 
1834, Dr. Strauss a teacher of theology,^t Tuebingen, 
in a book entitled, the Life of Jesus, concentrated in 
one focus all the blasphemies and sophisms of rational- 
ists, and found admirers. In 1841, Bruno Bauer, licen- 
tiate at the university of Bonn, surpassed Strauss him- 
self, and avowed the pantheistic views of Hegel. One 
half of the tvv^o faculties of Greefs-walde and Koenigs- 
berg, declared in favor of his infamous book. 

" The famous theory of Semler, says Mr. Rose in 
^' his work on the awful declension in the Lutheran and 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 89 

" Other churches, became the most formidable weapon 
*^ ever devised for the destruction of Christianity. We 
" may add, (says the author quoted below) that it was 
" the most impudent theory ever advocated by men pro- 
" fessing still to be christians, and one the avowal of 
" which can scarcely be accounted for on the ground 
" that as, because of their interest, it was not convien- 
" ent for these teachers of theology and ministers of 
^' the German churches to disavow Christianity alto- 
'' gether, it was devised and maintained in order to con- 
" nect the profits of the christian profession with sub- 
" stantial and almost undisguised deism. Thus the 
" chairs of theology and the very pulpits were turned 
'' into the seats of the scornful ; and where doctrines 
" were at all preached, they were too frequently of this 
" daring and infidel character. It became, even at last a 
*• negative good, that the sermons delivered were often 
" discourses on the best means of cultivating corn and 
*• wine, and the preachers — employed the sabbath and 
" the church in instructing their flocks how to choose 
^' the best kind of potatoes, and to inforce upon them 
'^ the benefit of vaccination. {^') Undisguised infi- 
" delity has in no country, treated the grand evidences 
^" of the truth of Christianity with greater contumely, 
^' or been more offensive in its attacks upon the pro- 
" phetSjOr more ridiculous, in its attempts to account, 
'' on natural principles for miracles. Extremes of 
" every kind, were produced, philosophic mysticism, 

(1.) In America protestant neologists do not talk of potatoes, but they 
change their pulpits into rostrums of politics. 

8* 



90 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

" pantheism and atheism." (Encyclop. of Religious 
Knowledge, art. Neology.) The facts are fairly stated 
but what was the cause of the evil ? The author of 
the above ^irticle speaks of scarcity of Bibles ! igno- 
rance of Greek and Hebrew ! decay of piety, con- 
tempt for the authority of the divines of the reforma- 
tion and of the subsequent age ! Why does he not say, 
for the sake of sense and truth, contempt for the divine 
authority of the catholic church ? 

In England, Edward Herbert, Baron of Cherbury, 
who died in 1618, maybe styled the patriarch of Deism, 
as he first reduced Deism to a sj^stem. His symbol 
contained five articles. Blunt added two more articles, 
but others came who reduced the creed to less than 
one article. Lord Ashly, afterwards Earl of Shaftes- 
bury, who died in 1713, had already reached the ex- 
tremes of infidelity. We find in 1718, a weekly paper 
entitled the Free Thinher, published to advocate Deism 
and infidelity. Toland, Collins, Tindal, Morgan, Chubb, 
rank among the champions of the sect. Bolingbroke 
who died in 1751, prostituted his rare^talents to the 
same cause. He resolves all morality into self-love, as 
its first principle and final centre, thus making each 
man a Supreme Being. Gibbons and Hume, the great 
historians, are decidedly hostile to Christianity, whilst 
Robertson is barely neutral. Leland, Bergier, Baruel, 
Robison and Kett, abundantly prove that the poison- 
ous plant of infidelity, which has produced such dreadful 
effects of late years on the continent of Europe, was 
transported thither from England^ and that it was pro- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 91 

duced, nourished and increased to its enormous growth 
by that principle of private judgment in matters of reli- 
gion, which is the very foundation of the reformation. 
(See Milner's end of controversy. Let. viii. art. iii.) 
There is now a reaction in England, by the Ritualists 
towards catholic doctrines, whilst fat, aristocratic, spir- 
itual and temporal Lords naturally sink deeper and 
deeper into the abyss of indifference and materialism, 
and applaud Colenso. 

In France the fear of the stern Louis XIV, checked 
infidelity for a while. Under the weak and profligate 
regency that followed his reign, impiety raised its head 
and boldly attacked religion. Toussaint gave the sig- 
nal by his book, Desalarurs, Avhich Mcemed christian 
France, but greater scandals soon threw into oblivion 
that first scandal. A man endowed with extraordinary 
talents, but depraved, persuaded himself that his glory 
vrould remain incomplete as long as there remained a 
worshipper of Jesus Christ. His incredible activity, 
and his deep hatred of Christianity soon placed him at 
the head of the infidel party. Being weary, (as he said 
himself) of hearing that twelve men were sufficient to 
establish Christianity, he resolved to prove that one 
man would be sufficient to upset it. He found however 
that associates were needed, and from the numerous 
tribe of his admirers and disciples, he chose Dalembert 
and Diderot and contrived, to enlist in the same 
cause, Frederic II, King of Prussia, who wished to be 
thought a philosopher. The royal adept who had pro- 
tected their clubs and colony at Cleves, at last threw 



92 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

them off in disgust, and even wrote against them. To 
carry on their pm^poses, they formed secret societies, 
assumed new names, and employed an enigmatical lan- 
guage. If we look into some of their books expressly 
written for general circulation we find anti-christian 
doctrines, sometimes exposed in all their naked horrors, 
but oftener surrounded by sophistry and meretricious 
ornaments. Their grand encyclopedia was converted 
into an engine to propagate their errors. By pretend- 
ing to have nothing in view, but the enlargement of 
sciences they engaged the ministers of the Court of 
France in their favor. "A number of impious and 
" licentious pamphlets were scattered, (for sometime 
" none knew how) by a secret society formed at the 
" Hotel D'Holbach, at Paris, of which Voltaire was 
" elected honorary and perpetual president. To con- 
'^ ceal their design, which was the diffusion of their in- 
" fidel sentiments, they called themselves Economists. 
" The books that were issued from this club, were cal- 
" culated to impair and overturn religion, morals and 
" governments. As soon as the sale was sufficient to 
" pay the expenses, inferior editions were printed and 
'' given away or sold at a very low price, circulating 
"• libraries of them were formed and reading societies 
" instituted. While they constantly denied these pro- 
" ductions to the world, they contrived to give tliem a 
'' false celebrity through their confidential agents and 
" correspondents, who were not themselves always trust- 
" ed with the entire secret. By degrees they got pos- 
" session nearly of all the reviews, and periodical pub- 



CATHOLIC 3I1SSI0NARY WITH AMERICANS. 93 

" lications, established a general intercourse by means 
" of hawkers and pedlars, with the distant provinces, 
" and instituted an office to supply all schools with 
" teachers ; and thus did they acquire unprecedented do- 
" minion over every species of literature, over the 
" minds of all ranks of people, and over the education 
'^ of youth, without giving any alarm to the world. 
" Lovers of wit and polite literature were caught 
"by Voltaire, men of science were perverted and 
" children corrupted in the first rudiments of learning 
" by Dalembert and Diderot. Stronger appetites were 
'' fed by the secret club of Baron Holbach ; the imag- 
" ination of the higher order were set dangerously 
" afloat by Montesquieu, and the multitude of all ranks 
" was surprised, confounded and hurried away by Rous- 
" seau. Thus was the public mind in France completely 
'' con'upted, which, no doubt, greatly accelerated the 
" dreadful events which have since transpired in that 
'^ country. (Encyclopedia of Rel. Knowledge, Art. 
" Philosophists.) The latest irreligious and blasphem- 
" ous production of infidelity, in France, has been the 
" ' Life of Jesus' by the atheist Renan. It has de- 
" lighted the Jews, and may be classed with a similar 
" work of Strauss or rather with the Mormon Bible. 

Amongst so many infidels, John James Rousseau, 
born in Geneva, deserves a particular notice. His 
works are not unknown in America, and although they 
lose half of their prestige, by translation, they are 
dangerous to an unguarded reader. When Rousseau 
takes the side of truth, he is logical, eloquent, often 



94 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

sublime, but wlien lie opposes revelation he is sophistic, 
paradoxical, and falls into gross inconsistencies which 
the finest style and the cutest subtleties cannot disguise. 
The only difficulty in confuting his errors, (it may be 
said, all errors) is to reduce them to something yjrecise 
and definite. When that is done, all is done. It is only 
when error assumes a thousand different forms, and by 
dint of flights and evasions, escapes the grasp of logic, 
that it is dangerous and perplexing. The great art of 
Rousseau is ambiguity and deceit. He concedes a thing, 
and then cunningly retracts his concession, he suddenly 
turns around, passes from one proposition to another 
entirely different ; blends error with truth ; ascribes to 
his adversary ridiculous arguments, which he blows 
down, as a child his palace of cards ; when arguments 
fail him, he fascinates with round periods and elaborate 
phrases and by the charms of words produces an illusion 
which bewilders the mind. No man has ever made 
such a winning use of words. Without any thoughts of 
his own, he gathers and embellishes old fictions, and 
inebriates the soul with the seducing maxims of a vain 
philosophy, which undermines all truths and leads to 
absolute skepticism. I have given a short sketch of 
the effort of infidels in Europe, to crush Christianity, 
because it is from the old world, and particularly from 
England, (i) that America is supplied with an anti- 

(1.) The established church of Englard. has immense revenues. The 
cadets of aristocratic families enjoy a large share of that immense wealth. 
Hence, on account of large incomes, many temporal Lords, who are indif- 
ferent to religion, prop up the establishment. A percentage of that im- 
mense wealth is annually spent to print tracts, and convince dupes that the 
Pox^e is Antichrist, that Catholics are idolaters, that they hum the Bible, etc., 
etc. English people may be led astray for a while ; but there are too many 
scholars and honest souls in England to despair of their conversion. In 
spite of calumnies, the gouty parliament church will be crushed to death. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 95 

cliristian and anti-catholic literature. It has been already- 
stated (in the second chapter) that passions, religious 
dissensions, the turmoil of affairs, aversion to things 
supernatural and a vicious school-system favor in North 
America, the growth of infidelity. The wisest men 
are led astray. Benjamin Franklin, the American sage, 
who tried in vain to dissuade Thomas Paine from pub- 
lishing his Age of Reason^ was himself swept away by the 
torrent, in the society of atheists. One is amazed to read 
in his Ufe, that ten years before his death, and one 
month before the death of Voltaire, those two old men 
kissed each other as intimate friends. Besides the 
shallow slanderous and obscene book of Paine, we find 
a deistical company established at New York in 1801, 
with one Elihu Palmer at its head. They published a 
weekly paper. The Temple of Reason^ and clothed infi- 
delity in the dress of vulgar ridicule, the more effectu- 
ally to destroy in the common people, all reverence for 
sacred things. Among the disciples of this school,* 
deism has led, as usual, to the most disgusting atheism. 
That the number of infidels is already very great in the 
United States, may be inferred from the fact that an 
editor of a newspaper in New York lately published to 
the world, that he had spent thousands of dollars to 
establish a religious paper, and failed ; but on going to 
the other side (the infidel side) he succeeded. The 
prevalent form of infidelity in the United States is 
deism. There are thousands and perhaps millions of 
Americans, who assume the name of some protestant 
sect, but Avho are in reality, nothing more or less than 



96 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

deists. They believe in God, but virtually reject the 
revelation of God. They do not believe in the divinity 
of Jesus Christ 5 they do not call the Blessed Virgin 
Mary, the Mother of God; they merely range our 
Saviour a little higher than Confucius or Mohamed. 
Some maintain openly, that there is no need of revela- 
tion from God ; that our reason is the criterion of 
truth ; that mysteries are nonsense ; others maintain that 
the proofs of Christianity are not evident 5 they want 
new signs in heaven, new miracles, new lights, and 
they conclude that the wisest plan is to profess out- 
wardly the religion in which we have been born and 
educated, or any form of religion which is fashionable ; 
there are not a few who call bigotry and fanaticism any 
firm adhesion to this or that creed ; they blindly follow 
and obey some worshipful Master of secret lodges, a 
Grand Sire, a Grand Orient, or such leaders, whilst 
they upbraid the successors of the apostles with the 
odious epithets of spiritual tyrants, enemies of civil and 
religious liberty, progress and the sciences ! 

I have to confute all these errors. IJl would take a 
large in-folio to condense and refute the false assertions 
of Deists, to point out their contradictions, to expose 
their sophisms, to describe the fatal results of their 
unbelief, and unfold the unanswerable arguments in 
favor of Christianity ; it cannot be expected that I will 
follow them through a labyrinth of errors, for I must be 
short ; suffice it to say that if a vain science and human 
eloquence, if the charms of poetfy, and a fascinating 
style, if wit and sarcasm, if cunning and lies, could 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITirAMEKICANS. 97 

prevail against truth, there would be no longer any 
church or Christianity on earth ; but our Lord has proni_ 
ised to be with his apostles, all days, even to the cori- 
summation of the world. The substance of our answers 
to the main objections and common assertions of Deists 
will be found in the following discussions. 

Article 2. Insufficiency of reason and necessity of a 
divine revelation. 

The following conversation took place with two 

Americans, A and B^ ^ in front of a beautiful 

church, which had been erected at a great expense. I 
met the two gentlemen at the door of the church which 
they liad visited, no doubt, through mere curiosity. I 

knew them. A , had refused to sell land for a church, 

remarking that he would rather have a jail neai* his 

house than a church. B , had often grumbled at the 

exemption of church property from taxation. I bowed 
and said : 

Missionary. — Gentlemen, how do you like our chmxh ? 

Deist A, — It is beautiful, very beautiful ; but it is a 
pity to spend so much money to no better purpose. 

Deist B. — Yes, give us instead of churches good 
(school houses and strong jails, and our country will 
prosper without any parallel in the world. 

Missionary. — Gentlemen, the world is bad enough a» 
it is ; but without churches, (that is without religion,) 
thieves and murderers would be so numerous that jails 
could not hold them. Schools are good for children, 
(that is good schools,) jails are necessary, to shut up 
iialefactors, but churches are necessary for all, for young 



98 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

and old people, in order to prevent evil and encourage 
virtue. 

Deist A. — You must not be offended at my remarks, 
for I have said the same thing to Mr. Wood-head, (a 
protestant minister.) 

j\nssionary. — So much the worse, as it shows that you 
have no religion at all. 

Deist A. — Oh ! I believe in God and in natural re- 
ligion, and so does my friend B , but I wish in- 
deed that the time may come when every body will be 
his own priest, and when reason and common sense will 
rule the world. 

Missionary. — As you speak of reason, let us reason 
awhile. (We sat down.) Do you really believe that rea- 
son alone, that is reason unaided by revelation, is a 
sufficient guide in religious matters ? 

Deist A. — Certainly. Reason is the noblest preroga- 
tive of man. With his intellectual power, man has 
made himself independent of every thing, except his 
creator. By the discovery of general principles he has 
measured the earth and discovered thelaws that regu- 
late the solar system. He has even conquered time and 
space. By the means of useful inventions, such as 
the art of writing, printing and photography, the use 
of steam power, the wonderful telegraph, the micro- 
scope, the telescope, etc., etc., humanity advances 
slowly towards perfection. With regard to religious 
matters reason leads us to God, and tells us sufficiently 
what is true and false, and what is right and wrong. 
There is, assuredly nothing more unreasonable than to 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH A3IERICANS. 99 

give up our reason. To give up our reason, without rea- 
sons, is folly. Your church, I am told, reprobates the 
use of reason in matters of religion, but I am not to 
shut my eyes and believe blindly incomprehensible 
dogmas, and mysteries, on the word of men who are 
no more infaillible than myself; nor be ruled and 
frightened by impostors, who are no more sent from 
heaven than the last of their fold. 

Missionary, — Who ever told you that the catholic 
church reprobates the use of reason, knows very little of 
catholic divinity. Although faith is a gift of God 
reason is not on that account cast aside. Reason and 
faith are never conflicting together, no more than the 
light of a candle and the light of the sun are conflict- 
ing. What all true christians really hold, is that rea- 
son must know its limits. On the supposition that 
God makes his holy will known to men, we, his crea- 
tures, are bound to hear him. You are not, I hope, 
one of those who deny the possibility of revelation. 

Deist A. — I believe that there is no need of revela- 
tions. He, who tells me. give up your reason, humble 
your reason, outrages God who has given me that rea- 
son to use it to the best advantage. Let men enlighten 
my reason, convince my understanding, if I am wrongs 
I am ready to yield ; but if a man pretends to speak with 
authority, as messenger of God, I wish him first to 
show his credentials, and produce his papers. 

Missionarij. — We may come to an understanding. I 
agree with you that we are not required to give up our 
reason, and moreover that they who claim to be the 



100 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

messengers of God must fairly sliow that they are sent 
by heaven ; but, on your side, you must not exaggerate 
the strength and povrer of reason, nor place man above 
his Creator. During many years and centuries people 
and philosophers have been plunged in darkness, on 
the most essential truths. Their morals and worship 
were accordingly w^retched. We have been, from our 
infancy, so faniiliarized with the Gods and Godesses, 
and the obscene or cruel practices of Greece and Egyj)t, 
that we are not shocked, as we ought to be, at the 
strange aberrations of the human mind, during thou- 
sands of years. Had not heathens reason to guide 
them ? And where has reason alone abolished idolatry 
or reformed morals ? No where, either before or after 
Christ. 

Deist B. — Notwithstanding all errors, there remained 
the essence of natural law. By a judicious selection of 
the laws and maxims of heathens it is easy to produce 
a perfect code of morality, for example, the epic poem 
Telemachus, written by one of your Bishops, contains 
truth and wisdom nearly equal to that of the Gospel. 

Missionary. — There is no doubt that ancient philoso- 
phers have admitted many truths ; but it may be doubt- 
ed if they have discovered any. The first revelation 
transmitted from father to son, and afterwards the re- 
velation of God to the Jewish people may have enlighten- 
ed them, especially as they ^vere all fond of travelling. 
It was not very difficult for Fenelon to make a good 
choice of wise lessons for his Mentor^ for he found it 
ready made in the Gospel. It is easy now-a-days to 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 101 

travel from Europe to the West Indies ; but it was a 
hard undertaking for Cohimbiis. If Rousseau and 
other deists are infinitely superior to Celsus or Plotinus, 
they owe it to Christianity. The high ideas God, 
His providence and justice, on our nature, duties and 
destinies, which are now universally known, are chris- 
tian dogmas unknown to heathens. Besides it may be 
said that the truths which pagan philosophers admitted, 
were as lost in a heap of errors, not only on the great 
truths which are the basis of virtue, such as the exis- 
tence and unity of God, the liberty of man, the immor- 
tality of the soul; b;it even on the most essential 
principles of morality. Nor, are we to wonder that 
ancient philosophers have been so blind, when infidel 
philosophers of our days, although enlightened by reve- 
lation, fall into atheism and pyrrhonism. The shocking 
prevalence of errors and crimes, wherever Christianity 
is unknown is a strong proof that revelation is a bless- 
ing. The more we study the degradation of heathens, 
the more necessary does revelation appear. 

Deist A. — I am sorry that it is so late, I would like 
to hear you on that subject. If I do not intrude too 
much upon your time, I will call again. 

Missionary, — Entirely welcome, but before you leave 
let me give you some papers which I have at your ser- 
vice. I beg you to read them. 

I went to my room and gave them tlie following 
]3assages of good authors, which relate to the insuffi- 
ciency of reason and the necessity of revelation. 

Pagan Philosophers. (Opinion of Lucian.) Menip- 
9* 



102 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

pns had read Homer and Hesiod. Being disgusted 
with the scandalous adventures of their Gods, he ad- 
dresses himself to philosophers ; but he soon discovers 
that he has fallen from bad to worse. I found among 
^ * them, he says, so much ignorance and uncertainty on 
*' the most necessary truths, that I thought common 
" people incomparably wiser than any of them. In 
'' fact, some held up sensuality as the sovereign good, 
" the only one to be coveted ; and others held that we 
" must despise pleasure, and work and toil and suffer 
" courageously. Some wanted me to attach no value to 
" gold and silver ; others maintained that silver and gold 
^' were real goods. It was still worse when they came 
^^ to discom^se on the universe. All their talk was 
'' about atoms, vacuum, incorporeal substances and 
" other inconceivable things : but what perplexed me 
'' the most, and what seemed to me very strange was, 
" that each framed his sophisms so artfully, that if one 
^' proved that a body was warm, and another that the 
" same body was cold, I did not know what to think, 
" nor what to answer. What beside¥, disgusted me 
" above all the rest, was the contradiction which I ob- 
" served between their maxims and their conduct. He 
'^ who declaimed against riches, was lending his money 
'' at usurious interests, and exacting good pay for eveiy 
" thing. He who despised glory, was anxious to be 
^' praised for all he did ; almost every one publicly cen- 
^' sured sensuality, and in secret indulged in it to the 
*^ utmost." (Lucian's Dialogues, Menippus and Philo 
nldas.) 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 103 

Do^ (opinion of Hermias.) Hermias, (a christian) 
says in his sharp and witty satii'e : " I ask them what 
"is our soul? Democrites tells me, it is a fiery sub- 
" stance ; Heraclites, it is motion ; Pythagoras, it is 
" a number that has motive power ; Hyppon, it is a 
" chemical water ; Critias, it is blood ; others, it is a 
" vapour from the stars, the element of elements, etc. 
" Each has his say, and none has truth. But what is 
" the destiny of that soul % Some make it immortal, 
" and some mortal ; some prolong its existence for a 
" time, and others reduce it to atoms ; some send it 
" into the body of brutes ; some will have it to pass 
" successively in three different bodies, and others 
" make it roam for three thousand years. Thus, with 
" some I am immortal and I am overjoyed. Then, alas ! 
" I am mortal, and I feel sorrowful. I am, in turn, 
'^ atom, water, air, fire, and then I am nothing of the 
" kind, but I become a fish, a reptile, a wild beast, a 
" quadruped, and when I see men, I do not know if I 
" must call them men or wolves, or dogs, or oxen, or 

" snakes, or birds, or phantoms, or . Finally, Em- 

" pedocles for the sake of variety, makes me a shrub. 
" So much do I learn from philosophers the great oracles 
" of wisdom. (Hermias, Irrisio, Philos.) 

Modern Philosophers. (Opinion of J. J. Rousseau) 
I consulted philosophers, I read their books, examined 
<• their different opinions, and found them all arrogant, 
^' self-conceited, dogmatical. Notwithstanding their 
" pretended skepticism, they ignore nothing, prove 
" nothing and laugh at each other, and this last point. 



4i 



104 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

'^ common to all, seemed to me the only one upon 
^' which they were all right. They attack boldly, but 
" in self-defence they are powerless. If you examine 
'' their reasons, you find them all arrayed for destruc- 
" tion ; if you count the voices, every one is reduced 
"to his own." ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 

" Under the haughty pretext that they alone are en- 
" lightened, true and sincere, they subject you, imperi- 
" ously to then- magisterial decisions, and boldly give you 
" as the true principles of things, the incomprehensible 
" systems which are the creation of their brain. By 

upsetting, destroying and trampling upon what is 
" venerated by mankind, they deprive the afflicted of 
^' the last consolation to their misery ; they free the 
" rich and men in power from the only restraint to 
'^ their passions ; they eradicate from the human heart 
" the remorses of the wicked, and the hope of the just 
^- and they boast, notwithstanding of being the bene- 
" factors of the human race. ISTever do they say, is 
" truth hurtful to man. I believe it, asjthey do, and it 
'' is in my opinion, a strong proof that what they teach 
" is not truth." (Emilius, t. iii* p. 25 and 181.) 

Corruption and blindness of heathens. When I see 
the Greeks, with their absurd theogony and their Gods, 
" who are guilty of adultery, rape, theft, etc., when I 
i' see the Egyptians adoring goats, monkeys, cats, cro- 
" codiles and even the onions and leeks of their gardens ; 
" when I see the Romans consulting their sacred birds 
" on the destinies of battles, raising statues to their 
^' God, Crepitus, {2i filthy vnnd, which I cannot name) 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 105 

'* dedicating altars to Fear^ and building temples to 
" Fever ; when I see the Persian prostrated before fire, 
" and rubbing his body, in order to be purified, with 
" the dirty fluid secreted by the kidneys of oxen ; when 
^' I see the Indians of Asia, remaining for months on 
'- one leg, with his arms extended, his head down, or 
'^ sitting on sharp nails and dying happy, provided he 
'- holds the tail of a cow in his hands ; when I see the 
^' dupes of sorcerers and diviners consulting the dead, 
'' and addicted to a thousand extravagant and absurd 
"'• superstitions ; when I see them w^orshipping their 
•• Gods by scandalous debaucheries and by horrible sac- 
'• rifices, for which they immolate their fellow men and 
'• even their children, I say : Where is reason *? (Let- 
tres dequelques Juifs par Guenee, t. 2.) 

" Every where the people are in the deepest igno- 
'' ranee and philosophers in error and doubts. Let us 
" di^aw a veil over that humiliating picture of human 
^' blindness, so often represented by others, but whilst 
'- turning our eyes away from that sorrowful object, let 
'• me ask you : Wh^ so many errors amongst people 
'^ so wise, and so much wisdom amongst the Hebrews ! 
'' Is is not because other nations had no other guide 
^•' than the dim and vaccilating light of reason, whilst 
'• amongst the Hebrews, a superior reason had dispelled 
'^ darkness and banished incertitude ? (Do. t. III. p. 
5.) 

'' Two philosophers have devised laws for Greece. 
'^ Plato a»d Aristoteles. Fearing an excess of popula- 
" tion they are not ashamed to seek for a remedy to 



106 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

^^ that evil, in the destruction of children, before their 
" birth. How many miu'ders of that kind are com- 
" mitted yearly in China, Japan, etc ? (Do. t. Ill, p. 
46.) 

" Pagan legislators instead of preventing prostitution 
" have encouraged it. In those days of superstition and 
^- corruption, it was accounted a religious practice. 
^' Amongst eastern people, Phoenicians, Lyrians, Baby- 
^' lonians, etc, a number of harlots were attached to the 
" temples of Baal-peor, Yenus, Priam, etc., whoprosti- 
" tuted themselves in honour of their Gods and God- 
" esses. The Greeks, themselves were not free from 
" those religious infaiiiies. The temple of Venus at 
^' Corinth, had for its part, not less than two thousand 
" of them. The price of prostitution was offered to 
" the Gods, and it was its main source of wealth. (Do. 
''i,d^ p. 131.) -^ * * There is something more 
^* shameful. A crime which we would think too de- 
" grading for the outcast of the human species, became 
'' common in those climes. Sodoma had given the ex- 
" ample of it. In Greece the poets celebrated it, Phi- 
" losophers eulogized it, and legislators dared not to 
" punish it. Rome imitated those disorders, and that 
" crime was seen clothed in purple, on the imperial 
^' throne. What were the sacred woods ? * * * * ^^ 
" The laws of Sparta, says Montesquieu, not only took 
" out natural feelings from the heart of parents, but 
" modesty and decency from the hearts of virgins. (Do. 
t. Ill, p. 136.) 

Do. Feasts of Bacchus. 'To these ceremonies others 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMEKICANS. 107 

'• were added, obscene to the last excess, and worthy of 
" the God who chose to be honored in such a man- 
" ner. The spectators gave the prevailing humor 
'^ and were seized with the same frantic spirit. Nothing 
" was seen but dancing, drunkenness, debauchery an d 
'^ all that the most abandoned licentiousness can con- 
'' ceive of gross and abominable. And this, an entire 
'^ people, reputed the wisest of all Greece, not only suf- 
'^ fered, but admired and practised ; I say an entire 
'• people, for Plato, speaking of the Bachanalia, says 
'^ in direct terms, that he had seen the whole city of 
'• Athens drunk at once. Livy iuforms us that this 
" licentiousness of the Bachanalia having secretly crept 
'' into Rome, the most horrid disorders were commit- 
" ted there under cover of the night and the inviolable 
''' secrecy which all persons who were initiated into 
'• these impure and abominable mysteries were obliged 
'' under the most horrible imprecations to observe. The 
''' Senate being apprized of this affair put a stop to 
'' these sacrilegious feasts by the most severe penalties. 
(Rollings Ancient History, Book x. ch. iii.) 

Do. Apotheosis. " Amongst polytheists, there have 
^•been sophists superior to their religion, amongst us, 
'- no philosopher, let him be ever so wise, has raised 
'• himself above the standard of christian morality. A 
'^ socrates honored the memory of the just, but the 
" pagan religion offered to the veneration of men, bri- 
^' gands, whose bodily strength was the only virtue,- 
" and who were famous only for their crimes. If good 
"kings have occasionally received the honor of the 



108 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" Apotheosis, Tiberius and Nero have been honored 
'' also with priests and temples." (Chateaubriand, 
Genie du Christ, ii, p. 224.) The same writer observes 
that Christianity is virtue suffering on earth, and poly- 
theism, the worship of crimes and opulence. 

Modern paganism of infidels. " The world has often 
" witnessed the apotheosis of individuals : such was, in 
" fact, the origin of paganism ; but, by being deified, 
^' man ceased to be a man. Transformed by opinion 
" into a more perfect being, man changed its nature, 
'' and tradition upheld the belief of a supreme God, in- 
*' finitely elevated above those inferior deities. On the 
'^ contrary, it is man, as an abstraction, or humanity it- 
^* self, that modern philosophists have deified to the exclu- 
'- sion of any superior being. Man has worshiped him- 
" self as Man. Finding in his pride and concupiscence, 
'' something infinite, he has made them both the sole 
" object of his worship. He has adored his pride 
"' tinder the name of reason, and adored it under the 
'•emblems of sensuality, because licentiousness of 
" appetite is, if I may say so, the pride of the flesh, 
'* as pride is the sensuality of the intellect ; and as 
" there are no crimes or vicious habits that do not 
*' necessarily flow from those two mother-passions, 
'' when man acknowledges no other authority, no other 
^' lav>s no other God than reason, in order to have it 
" fully represented, he had to find all vices and crimes 
'' personified in a living being, and that horrible idol he 
'' has found in the haunts of prostitution. In fact, what 
" better image could there be of absolute error, which 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 109 

' annihilates truth, than a harlot whose corruption de- 
^ stroys virtue, individual, family and society. Let it 
' never be forgotten ! Reason, whose beneficent reign, 
' so long extoled and promised, was to change the world 
' into a land of peace and happiness, that powerful 
• reason obtains at last a complete dominion. Men 
' proclaim her divinity and her altars are ruins, her 
' hymns are songs of proscription ; her priests are exe- 
' cutioners, her worship is death and the hope of her 
' worshippers, Annihilation. 

" Doctrines have a hidden virtue, a secret force for 
'• evil or for good, which at first unknown is revealed 
' by effects. That alone ought to prove that man is 
' not created to frame his belief, but to receive it from 
' Him, who can neither deceive nor be deceived ; for 
' if reason alone had to decide as a judge, man, who is 
' so often led astray by false appearances and the 
' sophisms of his mind, would perish a thousand times 
' a victim of his vain reasonings, before he could dis- 
' cover the truths adapted to his nature and necessary 
' for his conservation ; for these truths astonish and 
' confound liim, even when he knows them jDcrfectly 
' and believes them firmly. Here is a subject of deej^ 
' meditation to a reflecting mind. The instrument of 
^an ignominious death, the cross is raised amongst 
' people and it stops the effusion of blood and inspires 
' men with celestial meekness. The cross is broken, 
' and a symbol of sensuality raised in its place and soon 
'blood flows in torrents, men turn mad and frantic, 
' and the first sacrifices offered to the obscene idol are 
10 



110 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" hecatombs of Iranian victims." (De la Mennais, Essai- 
sur rindiffierencej t. 1, c. xi.) 

Insufficiency of reason. UeTocqeville. on the sub- 
ject of religion, says : '' This is, then, the subject on 
" which it is most important for each of us to entertain 
"fixed ideas, and unhappily it is also the subject on 
" which it is most difficult for each of us left to himself 
" to settle his opinion by the sole force of his reason. 
" None but minds singularly free from the ordinary 
'•anxieties of life, minds at once penetrating, subtle 
" and trained by thinking, can even with the assistance 
" of much time and care, sound the depths of these 
" most necessary truths ; and indeed, we see that these 
" philosophers are themselves always enshrouded in un- 
" certainties ; that at every step the natural light which 
" illuminates their path grows dimmer and less seciu*e, 
'^ and that in spite of all their efforts, they have as yet 
'' only discovered a small number of conflicting notions 
"on which the mind of man has been tossed about for 
" thousands of years, without ever laying a firmer grasp 
" on truth, or finding novelty even in its errors. Studies 
" of this nature are far above the average capacity of 
" men, and even if the majority of mankind were capa- 
" ble of such pursuits, it is evident that leisure to culti- 
"vate them would still be wanting. Fixed ideas of 
" God and human nature are indispensable to the daily 
" practice of men's lives, but the practice of their lives 
"prevents them from acquiring such ideas. The diffi- 
" culty appears to me without parallel. Among the 
" sciences there are some which are useful to the mass 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY VflTH AMERICANS. Ill 

" of mankind^ and which are within its reach ; others 
" can only be approached by the few, and are not culti- 
" vated by the many, who require nothing beyond the 
^' more remote applications ; but the daily practice of 
" the science I speak of is indispensable to all, although 
"the study of it is inaccessible to the far greater 
" number." (Democracy in America, t. ii, p. 21.) 

JDo. " I would ask if there exists any man who can 
" exactly define what reason is ! or who can tell why 
" he is endowed with it, or in w^hat way it is useful to- 
'' him, and what are its limits ? Nevertheless this is 
''" but the letter A of this alphabet. (Essay on cathol. 
by Don J. D. Cortes, ch. x.) 

" The most glorious mystery of the incarnation of 
" the Son of God, is the only title of nobility which 
" mankind can claim. ***** When I consider 
" the blindness of his understanding, (of man) the 
" weakness of his will, the shameful desires of his flesh, 
" the ardor of his concupiscence and the perversity of 
'^ his inclinations, the misery of man is so great and 
" his intellectual indigence so lamentable * * * * 
'' that the meanest reptile which I trample under my 
" feet would seem less despicable to me than man. * 
" * * * * What surpasses my comprehension 
" and astonishes me is, that any one should suppose 
" that it requires a weaker faith to believe in the in- 
" comprehensible mystery of the dignity of human na- 
" ture, than to believe in the adorable mystery of God 
" made man, in the Avomb of a virgin, by the power of 
" the Holy Ghost. It only proves that man always re- 



112 CONVERSATIONS 01'^ A 

" mains subject to faith, and that when he seems to 
"•reject its teachings, in order to follow his own reason, 
"•he only abandons that faith which is divinely niysteri- 
" oiis, in order to embrace what is mysteriously absurd. 
(Do. Chapt. yiii.) 

Necessity of faith. " Reason is to our soul what the 
" eyes are to our body, but would not our eyes be use- 
" less organs unless there existed between them and 
" the objects which strike our sight a luminous body, 
" which causes the effects of vision ? Could we admire 
" the beautiful scenes of nature, if the sun refused its 
" light ? Even so, we could not perceive spiritual ob- 
" jects if the sun of justice would not enlighten our 
" soul ; the human intellect could not understand the 
" invisible things of God, if God himself had not, from 
" the beoinnino' diffiised his eternal lioiit throuQ-h the 
" world, if he had not communicated it to holy men, 
" to patriarchs and apostles who have faithfully trans- 
" mitted us the heavenly revelation from age to age ; 
" if Jesus Christ, the plenitude of truth, the life and 
'*' the light of the world^ was not always present in the 
" midst of his disciples, in that visible church, with 
" which although himself invisible to our mortal eyes, 
" he has promised to remain forever, by his holy spirit. 

" It is that church, aln^ays enlightened by the sun of 
'^justice which is the luminous body that enables us to 
" see heavenly truths ; it is on her authority that we 
" have received them ; it is on her permanent authentic 
" and solemn testimony that we believe the holy scrip- 
" tures, the Bool: of God, which slie hands to us as such, 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 113 

^' and which she alone has the right to explain, because 
'• she is necessarily infallible, being led by the spirit of 
^' truth. Your Bishops, my Lords, (he addresses An- 
" glican Bishops,) do not teach a different doctrine, and 
^' there can be no Christianity on other principles. 
^' When the apostle St. Paul invited us to weigh in the 
" scale of reason, the credibility of the proofs, which 
^' he had adduced to establish our belief, it means sim- 
^' ply that we must look in order to see, that we must 
^' open the eyes of our soul which are our understanding 
^' or intellect in order to understand the science of salva- 
'^ tion, that science which the low sensual man consid- 
" ers as folly, because it can be understood only by the 
^' spirit. 

'' This explanation, so simple, shows that reason en- 
^' lightened from above acquires a supernatural preroga- 
" tive, a higher name, a title which expresses her power. 
^' It becomes Faith. Faith elevates us above this earth ; 
^' by faith our mind conceives the object of our hope^ 
'^ and obtains a demonstration of heavenly things. This 
^S'iew of the words of the apostle entirely explodes 
^* the ideal system of Luther and Calvin, who set up 
'' reason as the only interpreter of the Bible, not per 
'' ceiving that they move in a vicious circle, and com- 
'• mit an egregious blunder. They pretend that the 
'^ eye must see without the intervention of a luminous 
•' body, and what is impious, they attribute to man 
'- what belongs only to God. They call reason the 
'' light of the soul, whereas it is only its eye, for Jesus 
^' Christ alone is the light which enlightens every man 
10- 



114 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" coming into the world, it is through him, and through 
" his church, which is his body, that reason can know 
" the supernatural truths which he is come to reveal 
" unto men who were plunged in the thick darkness of 
" error and sin. Sublime mysteries ! which would 
" never have entered into the mind of man, if the Lord 
" had not revealed them, if he had not left, when he 
'' ascended up to heaven a bright luminary, through 
" which light is reflected on all the hearts. I mean, 
" the apostolical church, which alone enlightens all hu- 
'' man reasons." (Lettres sur Tltalie par DeJoux. t. ii, 
p. 12.) 

After some weeks M. M. A and B , came ac- 
cording to promise. They were accompanied by Mr. 

C , whom they introduced to me as their friend, and 

whom they perhaps considered as a powerful advocate 
of Deism. The usual forms of politeness being over 
Mr. A said without further ceremonies. 

Deist A. — I have read, sir, with considerable atten- 
tion the papers which you have Jianded us. What is 
historical is clear, but the last article is rather too phi- 
losophical for my understanding. Whether reason is 
the light of our soul, or its eye is not evident. I main- 
tain still and believe that there are natural truths, of 
religion as of science, which we can know in a natural 
way, as there are objects which we can see by the plain 
light of the sun, without artificial light or the use of a 
microscope. 

Missoinarij. — Let us not dispute on complicated ques- 
tions of metaphysics, but plainly admit what is evident 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 115 

to all men. The disputes on the source of vision, as 
those on the origin of ideas are not necessary to arrive 
at a knowledge of practical truths. Let it be granted, as 
you maintain it, that we can by the proper use of rea- 
son arrive at the knowledge of some religious truths, 
the main questions remain unanswered, viz : can rea- 
son alone, that is reason unaided by revelation, arrive 
at the knowledge of all necessary religious truths, and 
form a religion with which reason itself will be satis- 
fied 1 and secondly, in case that God clearly reveals a 
truth, is it the right for reason, to reason with God t I 
have already produced historical facts and arguments 
which go far to prove the insufficiency of reason. If I 
now establish the more important fact that God has in 
deed revealed a religion. I hold it to be the duty of 
reason to confess the right of God, to bow reverently 
and to believe. 

Deist A. — Reason, however, imperfect it may be, is 
our only guide, and the only faculty which God has 
given us to discern truth from error, and good from 
evil. It is our only light to judge of the credibility of 
pretended revelations. To believe with a blind faith is 
irrational, it is the folly of enthusiasts and fanatics. 

Missionary. — It was already a trite argument in the 
days of Manes, at the end of the third century, that 
catholics swallowed everything, and acted as if they dis- 
pised the benefit of human reason, and were afraid to 
examine and distinguish between truth and falsehood. 
The Manichees claimed the right to examine doctrines, 
and to consider whether they were true, sound and 



116 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

genuine. With them revelation Avas the servant of 
reason and not its mistress. They as all modern infi- 
dels, inverted the natural order of investigation. Our 
reason being finite, is a poor judge of doctrines. To as- 
sert that we may pass a judgment on the truths reveal- 
ed by God to pronounce them worthy or unworthy of 
our belief, is worse than folly, it is a blasphemy and a 
kind of idolatry. It is the worship of our reason. 
What are we to reason with God ? Truth and wisdom 
is between the two extremes of enthusiasm and ration- 
alism. What is evidently absurd we must reject; the 
proofs and evidences of revelation we may investigate, 
(that is not above the strength of reason) but when 
convinced that God has spoken, we must believe with a 
firm faith, because God can neither deceive nor be de- 
ceived. That is not blind faith, but a reasonable faith. 
It is what we do in the daily transactions of life. If 
we have a law suit, we employ a good lawyer ; if we 
are ill, we send for a good physician, if we have to 
cross the sea, we look for a staunch vessel commanded 
by competent officers. After making a choice we en- 
trust to those men of skill and experience our for- 
tune, our health and our life. In the same manner, 
knowing our ignorance on religious subjects, and the 
weakness of our reason, let us see that the guides who 
ofier themselves to pilot us to heaven be worthy of our 
confidence, that their mission be as clearly divine as 
the mission of Jesus Christ and his apostles, and having 
found such guides, let us rely on their guidance. 

Deist A. — Your comparison, sir, makes up my point. 



CATHOLIC 3II3SIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 117 

Every body has a right to be his own lawyer, his own 
doctor, his own captain. Why not give every body 
the right to be his own priest ? 

Missionary. — What you call right^ is called by others, 
presumption. It may be your right to go to sea, alone, 
in a skiff, without chart or compass, but I would call it 
a/oZ/y, and I would not, venture to embark with you. 

Dei^t A. — If I understand your meaning, the proper 
use of reason is to shut our eyes to internal evidence, 
and to believe on authority without reasoning, for exam- 
ple you would have us to judge of a lecture by the 
qualifications of a lecturer. I cannot agree to that, I 
claim the right to reason with my lawyer, doctor or 
captain, and, if I ever choose a minister, with my min- 
ister also. 

Missionary. — Men, however learned, are fallible. It 
is your right to reason with them. A lecturer, how- 
ever renovv^ned, is liable to mistakes. His lectures are 
public property and may be criticized without injustice ; 
but the word of God is not to be corrected or criti- 
cized. If men prove that they have an ordinary or ex- 
traordinary mission from God, I repeat it, it is our 
duty to believe, even as children, because God is truth, 
a::d because men who are the messengers of God, who 
prove their mission (as the apostles have done it) cease 
in that quality to be fiillible. Jesus Christ is not a 
philosopher who came to reason with men and left 
them free to judge, and to receive or reject his words. 
He is true God, and true man, Emanuel. After estab- 
lishing his authority by miracles and prophecies, he has 



118 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

sent his apostles, with the fullness of his power, saying : 
'' Go and teach all nations ; behold I am with you, a]l 
'' days, even unto the end of the world. (Matth. xxvii, 
19, 20.) " He who heareth you, heareth me ; and he 
" who despiseth you, despiseth me ; and he that de- 
" spiseth me, despiseth Him that sent me." (Luke x, 
16.) 

Deist C. — I will adopt your ov/n principle. As you 
are not opposed to apply the test of reason to the mis- 
sion of Jesus Christ and his apostles, you leave me .a 
strong foot-hold. 

Article 3. Natural religion. 

Deist B. — My friend C surrenders his reason too 

easily. With your permission, gentlemen, I will take 
the floor (he stood up) and explained what I consider 
the right use of reason with regard to religious opmions. 
I reject and despise no religion. Christianity and all 
forms of religion are good and useful institutions ; but 
my firm conviction being that there is truth and un- 
truth in every form of religion, the right use of reason 
is to choose sound principles for ourselves, without 
condemning those who honestly follow the religion in 
which they have been born and educated. The Su- 
preme Judge will, no doubt, be more lenient to errors 
which have been inculcated by parents, than to errors 
of our own choice. (Emilius, t. iii.) He resumed his 
seat. 

Missionary. — Errors, sir, remain errors whether they 
have been inculcated by parents, or of our own choice. 
I do not know of a more blasphemous and more absurd 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 119 

principle, than to say with Rousseau : that a child is 
never wrong in folio v^dng the religion of his father, and 
that it is an unpardonable presumption to profess a re- 
ligion different from that in ^vhich we were born. It 
is elevating error, the impure source of sin, on a level 
with truth, the mother of virtue. How can it be an 
unpardonable presumption, for a reasonable being, to 
use his reason on the question which is to decide his 
eternal destiny ? If religion is an affair of geography ; 
if birth and education are the only things to be taken 
iilto consideration, it follows that the apostles were 
fools ; that missionaries, who follow their noble ex- 
ample, are not wiser. He who advances such princi- 
ples must say, with Chubb, that by passing from one 
religion to another, there is no more advantage gained 
than by putting off, for example, a blue di*ess, to put on 
a red one. (Chubb's Posthumous Works, vol. ii, p. 417.) 
On that principle, it is right to remain a mussulman in 
Turkey, a catholic at Rome, a budhist in Asia, an 
idolator in Congo. Is that reason ? To maintain as 
you do, that there is truth and untruth in every form of 
religion is a shocking blasphemy against our Saviour. 
The christian religion is from God, and being divine, it 
is pure and holy, without errors or blemishes, in har- 
mony with the perfections of God, and the aspirations 
of enlightened reason. To be hostile or indifferent to 
it is, not only a folly, but a misfortune, a crime, a 
wicked rebellion against God, which neither birth nor 
human laws, nor shallow reasonings can Justify or 
excuse. 



120 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

Deist B. — I am not hostile to the cliristiau religion. 
I call myself a christian and sincerely confess that there 
is not a religion which embodies more clearly the 
natm^al truths which reason avows. What I reject in 
Christianity and in all religions, are mysterious tenets 
and vain forms introduced by men. Religion does not 
consist in superstitious practices and unmeaning words. 
God requires to be worshipped in spirit and in truth^ 
v>^liich is the vv-orship of the heart. As to genuflexionSj 
decorations and forms they are mere accessory sign^. 
What does it matter if we kneel or stand up, or where 
we pray ? God is every where and knows all things. 

Missio7iary. — Why do you not speak your mind out- 
right ? Why do you not say, in plain words, that all 
forms of religion are folly ? That we have no need of 
ceremonies, of exterior or public worship ? That every 
one ought to be his own priest, as your friend would 
have it ? You have, surely, a very cheap religion ; a 
religion that will save dollars, if it does not save souls! 
With your natural religion there is no need of pew- 
rents, of donation parties, of perquisites for ecclesiastical 
functions ; nothing is needed for churcTies or ministers ;, 
nothing for altars, pulpits or bibles ; Rabbis and Lamas, 
priests and preachers are all alike. You must viev*^ 
them as cheats and useless drones. If ceremonies are 
unnecessary, the wisest is to have none at all, and to 
soar, by unbelief, above simpletons and fools ! 

Deist B. — I do not see what the v/orld would lose by 
that course, provided we retain the essence of religion. 

Missionary. — The world would lose all religious prin- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 121 

ciples, and witli the shell, lose also the kernel. Your 
natural eclectic religion is in reality the destruction 
of all religion, and religion being the basis of society, 
the destruction of order and justice. The majority of 
people have not the necessary qualifications nor the 
time to be philosophers ; as to the happy few who have 
time, talents and wealth to become the luminaries of 
the world, their variations, contradictions and their own 
confession ought to convince any impartial mind that 
they are, like other mortals, in need of a higher authori- 
ty than reason. Words and sentences are not a religion. 
Religion consists of dogmas and principles of morality 
expressed by worship, and Vv^orship is naturally ex- 
pressed by signs, as thoughts are expressed by words. 
Deists, who have no exterior worship, have in reality no 
religion. What dogmas do they hold? what fixed 
principles of morality do they receive? All ancient 
and modern philosophers who have relied solely on the 
light of reason, have argued on rights and duties until 
they aiTived at the negation of all principles. A few 
sophisms, so natural to passions, will suffice to silence 
reason, to lull conscience, and to decorate crime with 
the mask of virtue. The aberrations of Bolingbroke, 
of Lord Chesterfield, of Rousseau, and of too many 
others are well known. The first squarely denies that 
God can be offended by man, and consequently rejects^ 
all pains or rewards in a future life ; the second was 
not ashamed to advise liis son to commit adultery, as 
an antidote to the lovi debauchery so common to Eng- . 
lish gentlemen, (see liis letters,) the third admits modi- 
11 



122 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

fications and exceptions to the law of continency. (Em. 
t. iii, p. 280.) Man being prone to evil constantly aims 
at conciliating duties with passions and finally makes 
passions the rule of duties. There is not a religion in the 
world, be it the religion of Indians or Hindoos, that 
has not a code of morality, superior to that of deists. 
The former at least, cultivate the virtues which main- 
tain order in families and society, and do not reject the 
pains or rewards of a future life. They have, it is true, 
spilt human blood on the altars of their idols, but since 
human victims have been immolated to the Goddess 
Reason, Deism has not the advantage, even on that score, 
unless it be shown that it is sweeter and more becoming 
the dignity of man to be butchered in honor of the God- 
dess Reason, than in honor of the Sun or of Jugernaut. 

Deist B. — ^The natural religion has preceded all others. 
You will not deny that it has been the religion of man- 
kind from the days of Adam to the days of Moses. 
The natural religion being the oldest and the first, liow 
can you affirm that Deists have no religion ? 

Missionary. — What I affirm is that there never has 
been a natural religion, in the sense of Deists, or in other 
words, that God has not left Adam and Adam's child- 
ren without revelations. He has instructed our first 
parents, spoken to their descendants, to the patriarchs, 
to Noah and Abraham : When people forgot or rejected 
tlie ancient traditional religion, he has spoken more 
solemnly to Moses and given him a written law ; finally 
he has sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who 
has instituted the church to be forever the pillar of truth. 



CATiiOLIG M.ISoION"Airr WITH AMEFilOANS. 123 

The patriarchs expected the Messiah; they offered sac- 
rifices ; they had a defined form of worship. Theii* 
reHgion was natural, as the mosaic rehgion^ as the chris- 
tian rehgion is natural, because it was conformable to 
the nature of God and man, and suited to the wants of 
humanity, but it was not natural in the sense of Deists, 
viz : that man had framed it by the lights of his reason. 
When truth is known, reason can feel and even demon- 
strate it, but experience and a careful observation of 
what men have done in all times, in all places and un- 
der all circumstances, abundantly prove that reason has 
never reached the plenitude of truth, without a super- 
natural light from above. 

In the preceding answer, I have alluded to the con- 
tradictions of deists, and to their immoral principles. 
Here are proofs. 

Contradictions of Rousseau on Religion, — ^* Their reva- 
luations degrade God, they add absurd contradictions 
'^ to mysteries, they render man proud, intolerant, cruel, 
'- instead of establishing peace upon earth, they deso- 
^^ateit with fire and sword." (Emilius, t. iii. p. 133.) 
And further on. ^^ I consider all partiuclar religions as 
'^ useful institutions, etc. (Do. p. 184.) It is an un- 
'' pardonable presumption to profess a religion different 
^' from that in which we were born ; and hypocrisy, 
'• not to profess it sincerely," (Do. p. 195,) 

There is not much usefulness in revelations which 
degrade God, etc., etc. ^ * * * And one is at a loss to 
make out how it can be a duty to receive them and 
an unpardonable presumption to reject them ! 



124 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Do. Oil Dogmas and Morals. ** There are dogmas 
^^ which every man is bound to believe. (Do. p. 187.) 
" Without faith, there is no real virtue.*' (Do.) 

Elsevrhere he affirms •' that moral duties are the only 
" thing essential." (Do. p, 196.) 

Do. On Heason and Conscience. *• Reason alone teaches 
'' us to knovv' good and evil. Conscience which makes 
*' us love the one and hate the other, although inde- 
*' pendent of reason cannot be developed without her." 
(Do. t. ii. p. 263.) 

'- As soon as reason makes us know what is good^ 
'' our conscience makes us love it. It is that sentiment 
*' which is innate." (Do. t. iii, p. 75.) Let it be ob- 
Bcrved, en passant^ that what Rousseau calls an innate 
faculty is called by Bolingbroke a fantastical illusion, 
"Too often reason deceives us ; we have, alas, acquh*ed 
^' a right to reject it ; but conscience never deceives 
'^us, it is the true guide of men, etc." (Do. p. 98.) 

"' Conscience, conscience, divine instinct ^ * -^ -^ ^ 
" without thee, I feel inwardly nothing that can raise 
" me above the brutes, except the unhappy privilege of 
*• falling from errors into errors by means of a loose 
" understanding and unprincipled reason." (Do. p. 
114.) 

He discards reason and appeals to reason. Con- 
science never deceives and it rests upon reason v/hich 
* deceives. It canniDt be developed without reason, which 
we have a right to reject ! 

Do. Oa the autltoritij of fathers^ etc. We have seen 
above that it is an unpardonable presumption to pro- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 125 

fess a religion different from that in Avhich ^ve were 
born. Elsewhere he says : '' Do we seek sincerely 
^' after truth, let us give nothing to the rights of birth, 
^^ and to the authority of fathers and pastors, but let us 
''' recall to the examination of conscience and reason 
'' what they have taught us in our infancy." (Do. p. 
139.) 

Do. On reason. He sometimes, like all philoso- 
phists, degrades reason below the instinct of brutes, 
and sometimes extols it as the supreme arbiter of faith. 

'* The grandest ideas of the divinity come from rea- 
*'•' son. See nature ; hear the voice that speaks inwardly. 
'• Has not God told everything to our eyes, to our con- 
'^ science, to our judgment ?" (Do. p. 182.) 

And still he dares not affirm that our soul is im- 
mortal ! (Do. p. 80.) ^* Since the more knowledge 
'* v/e have, the more mistakes we make, the only means 
'' to avoid error is ignorance. Do not judge and you 
'• shall not err. It is the lesson of nature and reason." 
Do. t. ii, p. 156.) Sublime use of reason, indeed ! 

Countless contradictions might be quoted from Vol- 
taire, whose iunumerable errors, lies and sophisms are 
a lasting dishonor to his memory. Let it suffice to re- 
mark that it is impossible to reject all truths, and there- 
ore impossible for a deist not to fall into gross contra- 
dictions. 

^' No rationalist school denies all catholic dogmas at 
" once, for which reason all those schools are con- 
" demned to inconsistency and absurdity ; it is impos- 
'^ sible to escape this inconsistency and absurdity, with- 

ir* 



126 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" out the absolute acceptance of every catholic dogma, 
" or without denying them all with so radical a nega- 
^Hion as would result in nihilism." (Essay on Catho- 
licism, by Don. J. D. Cortes, 1. iii, cli. 7.) 

The following article from the memoirs of Moehlcr, 
is a striking illustration of the pernicious effect of 
error : 

" There is always the closest connexion between the 
" doctrinal and ethical system of any sect. In con- 
" formity with their frightful dualism, we see the an- 
" cient Gnostics alternate between the most extravagant 
" asceticism and the wildest lust. The Arians, by 
'^ denying the divinity of the redeemer, had narrowed 
" and chocked up all the channels of grace, and were 
'• accordingly ever remarkable for a low tone of moraii- 
'*ty. The reformers of the sixteenth century, with 
"their doctrine of justification, swore eternal enmity to 
" all the heroic virtues of Christianity, and effectually 
" dried up that mighty stream of charity which had 
" fertilized and embellished our European soil and cov- 
" ered it with countless institutions, formed to glorify 
"God and solace, sustain and exalt humanity. The 
" rationalist, who, far outran the earlyTeformers in ex- 
" travagance and blasphemy of teaching, outstripped 
" them also in the licentiousness of their moral code ; 
" for, what was more natural than that, they who had re- 
" vived the principles of paganism, should revive their 
'• morals also ? Accordingly, the theologians Doder- 
" lein and Caunabich, among other things roundly as- 
'' sert that fornication is blameless, and is not interdict- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 127 

'• ed by the precepts of the Gospel. Every branch of 
'^ theological learning was subjected by degrees to the 
'* potent dissolvent of these subtle chemists, till, at last, 
'' after the process of evaporation, a substance less chris- 
" tian than Mohammedanism was found as the residuum. 

'• These doctrines of unbelief, taught by the im- 
^'mense majority of the protestant clergy, penetrated 
" by degrees among all classes of the laity, and led to 
'• the general neglect of the divine service, to the per- 
" version of youth in the establishments of education, 
'• to the desecration of the Sabbath, the fearful multi- 
'•' plication of divorce, and to general demoralization." 
(Symbolism. Memoirs of Mcehler, p. 34.) 

Article 4. Divinit}" of the christian religion. 

Mr. B remaining silent, Mr. C , resumed the 

conversation. 

Deist C. — I must assure my friend B , that I have 

not surrendered my reason. Far from it. I am willing 
to adopt the principles of the Rev'd gentleman, to cut 
short with arguments, being well convinced that reve- 
lations cannot stand the test of reason. I freely admit 
that Jesus Christ has been an extraordinary man ; that 
he has been crucified unjustly ; that his advent and 
ministry have been, in the main, a blessing to mankind ; 
l)ut his divinity and the divinity of his religion is not, 
and cannot be proved. I do not wish, sir, to hurt your 
feelings. I am not a scoflfer, but I cannot believe against 
my convictions, and I repeat it : No revelations can 
stand the test of reason. 

Missionary. — Be not afraid, sir, to hurt my feelings. 



128 CONVEJKSATIOXS OF A 

Make the best arguDients in your power. I will, on 
my side give you a brief outline of tlie evidences of the 
divinity of the christian religion, and ansv>^er your ob- 
jections to the best of my ability. It is mj duty to sow 
the seed of Christianity, but its growth is the work of 
God. 

When the disciples of St. John the Baptist asked 
our Saviour : Art thou He that art to come, or do we 
look for another ? Jesus said : Go and relate to John 
what you have heard and seen. The blind see, the 
lame w^alk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the 
dead rise again, the poor have the Gospel preached to 
them, and blessed is he that shall not be scandalized in 
me. (Matth. x.) It is unnecessary to relate any mira- 
cle in particular, you have read the Bible. If you do 
not receive the old and new^ testaments as inspired by 
the Holy Ghost, or canonical, you must at least, admit 
them as authentic records of history. They ai'e cer- 
tainly as authentic as the works of Homer, Tacitus or 
Cicero. The facts related in the Bible cannot be con- 
troverted. What can be your ground for remaining 
incredulous ? ^ 

Deist C. — To be short with you, I have no faith in 
iniracles. The very nature of a miracle is a problem 
that puzzles philosophers and divines. We do noz 
know the laws of nature sufficiently, to affirm that a 
fact is supernatural or a miracle, (i) Ignorant peo- 



{1.) There are some inticlels who dcDy the possibility of miracles on the 
groimd^that natural laws are eternal, immutable, necessary. They arefata- 
lisis (confuted in chapt. 5.) Rousseau himself confesses that it is impious 
and absurd to ask if God can perform miracles. (Lettres de la Montague^, 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 129 

pie find a miracle where a philosopher sees nothiug 
more than a naUiral phenomenon. In old times peo- 
ple v>^ere not capable to form right judgments upon 
extraordinary phenomena. They believed in devils 
and witchcraft. A juggler's trick was a miracle. Im- 
posters had fair play. Now, that men are more enlight- 
ened, miracles are rather scarce. All we know from 
the miracles of Jesus Christ is hear-say, and facts are 
too remote from us to be fairly investigated. Until I 
see a iniracle with my own eyes, I v»dll trust to my rea- 
son and explain facts by natural principles. 

Missionary, — I expected some answer of the kind. 
Grantino^ that our ancestors were not as enlio-htened 
and civilized as w^e claim to be, their ignorance does not 
impair the strength of their testimony. Although they 
had not spectacles, they had eyes to see, and ears to 
hear and common sense to guide them : now, the right 
use of their senses and common sense is all that is re- 
quired to judge of a miracle. Take, for example, the 
preservation of Adrach, Misach and Abdenago from the 
fiery furnace, the flames mounted above the furnace 
nine and forty cubits, that was a plain fact, the three 
children walked in the midst of the flames, praising and 
blessing the Lord ; not a hair of their body was singed 



?i. Lettre, p. IM.) But, alas I for him, is it lesis impious and absurd to deny 
the reality of miracles by sophistry, ridicule and deceitfuluess ? He advan- 
ces, for example, that we must know all the laws of nature before we can be 
certain of a miracle ! On the miracle of Elias, recorded in the 4th book of 
Kings, ch. xviii, he says with an unbecoming levity: "If 3/r. Roudle. (a 
noted juggler) had been there, Elias would have been outwitted." (Lettres 
de la Mont, iii, p. 09.) He repeats a hundred times that the miracles of 
Jesus Christ have not been performed nor given as a proof of His mission, 
as if he had rot read the words of our Lord, in St. Matth. ch- x, St. Luke, 
cb. V, and so many other appeals to his miracles. 



J 30 CONVERSATIOXS OF A 

nor tlieir garments altered, another plain fact. Na- 
bucliadnezzar and his vrhole people were enlightened 
enough to discover and publish to the Vv^orld, that there is 
no other than God, atIio can save in this manner. (Daniel, 
iii.) Take the resurrection of Lazarus, the whole mira- 
cle consists also of two plain facts ; the first that Laza- 
rus was really dead ; he had been four days in the 
sepulchre and was stinking ; the second that he came 
to life at the command of our Saviour, and that he 
lived, common sense told them that such an event was 
above the ordinary laws of nature or a miracle. Let 
Hume or Rousseau bring forth a volume of metaphysi- 
cal reasonings, all their quibbles and cavils do not 
lessen the vv eight of the testimony of eye witnesses. 
Examine under every aspect the resurrection of Jesus 
Christ. The testimony of the apostles is unimpeach- 
able. The apostles have seen Jesus Christ risen from 
the dead, they have eaten and conversed with him 
during forty days after his resurrection. They could 
not have been deceived and they had no conceivable 
motive to deceive. Some men, it is true, have died for 
their opinions, but no man ever died to uphold a lie, 
which he knev%^ to be a lie ; and to imagine that twelve 
men would agree to cheat themselves and cheat the 
world is too great an absurdity to be asserted by a man 
who boasts of his reason. 

Deist C. — The testimony of half a dozen of ignorant 
men will not make me believe that Jesus Christ is 
risen. The Jews were the best and the most competent 
judges of the case, and their unbelief is more than suffi- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS- 131 

cieiit to counter balance the testimony of the apostles. 
Missionary. — I beg your pardon sir ; when you talk 
of a half dozen of witnesses, you forget that our Saviour 
was seen by more than five hundred brethern, at once. 
(1 Cor. XV. 6.) With regard to the apostles, I want a 
full dozen and one over, by counting St. Matthias and 
St Paul. As to the Jews, I would remark that a mil- 
lion of naughts are not worth a unit. Pride, prejudices 
and interests blinded many of them, and they believed 
not, but notwithstanding prejudices and passions, the 
world has been converted. A century after the death 
of Jesus Christ the Roman empire was full of christians, 
and Christianity had penetrated where the Roman eagles 
had never been carried. Remember, on one side, the 
moral state of idolaters all over the world, and theii' 
complete degradation. Remember, on another side, 
the nature of christian dogmas and precepts, the cruel 
persecutions of Nero and other tyrants, and you will 
be forced to confess that it required an infinite power 
to substitute the austere morality of the Gospel to the 
dissolute manners of the gentiles and the high dogmas 
of Christianity to the loose theories of sophists. To 
the eyes of a true philosopher the miracle of the con- 
version of the vrorld is more striking than the resurrec- 
tion of a dead body, and the word which reanimates 
a corpse, by recalling it to life, is not more wonderful 
than the word which reanimates nations, by recalling 
them to a spiritual life. Add to these miracles the su- 
pernatural fortitude of martyrs ; the fulfillment of the 
prophecies delivered to the Jews, in the person of Jesus 



132 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Christ ; the fulfilbnent of the prophecies of Jesus Christ 
and particularly of his prophecy of the destruction 
of J erusalem and of its temple, and you will hear in- 
wardly a voice that will tell you, like our Lord to 
Thomas : be not incredulous but faithful^ and may you 
exclaim with Thomas : My Lord and My God ! 

Deist C. — I have some remarks to make on prophe- 
cies, but I have not done with miracles. The witnesses 
of miracles are men. He who relies on his reason is 
not at the mercy of fallible men who perhaps have been 
deceived, and who perhaps have an interest to deceive. 
To whom has God spoken 1 To men. How do you 
prove it ? By miracles. But how do you prove mira- 
cles? By the gospel. And who have written the 
gospel ? Men, always men, a human fallible testimony ! 
(Emilius t. iii.) I am not the first who has rejected 
miracles. At the very beginning of the church, there 
were learned men who denied their reality, and there 
have been of late professed christians who have ex- 
plained them away. Why should I believe one party 
in preference to another t Besides, how can we dis- 
tinguish a true miracle from the tricks of impostors, 
from the prodigies so common amongst heathens, from 
tlfe fabulous vronders recorded m the legends of dark 
ages, but especially from the works of the devil ? For 
in your system, the devil can work miracles and imitate 
the works of God. Finally, why are there no miracles 
in oiu' days "? Is it not that people are now too en- 
lightened to call " miracle " whatever is strange and 
mysterious, as mesmerism or spirit-rapping '? 



OATIIOUO MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 133 

Missionary. — I must pay you the compiinient that you 
have pretty well ransacked the objections of infidels 
against miracles. You spoke in the first place of meuj a 
human fallible testimony. Now, do you reject history be- 
cause you have not been a witness of past events ? We 
know the deeds of Alexander, of Mohamed, of Wash- 
ington by the testimony of fallible* men. How do you 
know that Jesus Christ lived in Judea some nine- 
teen centuries ago ? Is it not by the testimony of fal- 
lible men '] But the same testimony which we rely 
upon to believe historical facts, is equally reliable on 
the subject of miracles, for miracles and the power 
given by Jesus Christ to his apostles and to their suc- 
cessors are historical facts which cannot be denied. 
But they have been denied and explained away, and 
you say,' in the second place whom shall I believe ? 

I answer, that you will know vvhom to believe and 
what to believe by comparing the depositions of wit- 
nesses. When the Jews, in order to deny the resurrec- 
tion ol our Lord, said that the guards fell asleep and 
that the apostles stole the body of our Lord, does it not 
strike you that it was a miserable subterfuge ? And when 
Jews and Pagans said that our Saviour and his apos- 
tles performed miracles by magical power, is your rea- 
son satisfied with that ansv/er ? The known fact they 
could not deny, in their days, because they were too public 
and too well attested. They could not admit the whole 
truth, without becoming christians, so, they tried to 
explain them by a ridiculous unknown power. When 
neologists in our days boldly account for them by a 
12 



134 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

i^till more ridiculous iugenuity they hardly deserve an 
answer. When they tell us, for example that Core, 
Dathon and Abiron were swalloAved up, because Moses 
had previously undermined the earth, that the miracle 
of feeding the five thousands of people in the desert, 
is resolved into the opportune passing by of a caravan 
with provisions of which the hungry multitudes were 
allowed to partake according to eastern hospitality ; 
that Christ's walking upon the sea, is explained by his 
walking upon the sea shore ; and St. Peter's walking 
on the sea, only means swimming ; that the miracles 
of healing were the effects of fancy operating favora- 
bly upon the disorders ; that Ananias and Saphira died 
of fright ; that our Saviour had only fallen into syn - 
cope, etc., etc. Our only answer is, you are not in 
earnest or you have lost your reason. You ask, in the 
third place how can we distinguish true miracles from 
juggler's tricks, from heathen prodigies, from the works 
of the devil? The tricks of jugglers are confined 
within a narrow circle. It is easier to distinguish true 
miracles from them, than to detect counterfeit money. 
The prodigies of pagans were only fictions of poets 
destitute of tangible testimony. Pagans themselves, 
as Cicero, treated them as fabulous, and no reason- 
able answer has ever been given to the fathers of the 
church who have exposed in their writings their absur- 
dity and the frauds perpetrated by the priests of idols. 
With regard to legends of middle ages, I agree with 
you to reject every thing which is not according to 
sound criticism. There remains- the power of the devil. 



€4Tf!(>I>10 jMISS'IONARY WITH AMERECAXS. 135 

We know from tlie teaeliing of the churcli and from 
the universal testimony of mankind that there are 
spirits and demons who play an important part in the 
affairs of the world ; but their power is limited. God 
alone is omnipotent. Xot a hair can fall from om- head 
without his will. Now, God being holiness and truth, 
it is obvious that He Avili not permit His creatures to 
be deceived in his name by impostors or devils. We 
find that the magicians of Pharaoh imitated the three 
first miracles of Moses, as far as evil was done, but 
they could not do any good and were soon forced to 
exclaim to Pharaoh : this is the finger of God ! If 
reason tells us to guard against imposture, it does not 
tell us to reject true miracles, beca^ise there are impos- 
tors and devils who endeavor to deceive by false pro- 
digies. You ask, in the fourth place, why are there no 
more miracles ? By reading a correct church history 
you will find that your supposition that nairacles have 
ceased is gratuitous. We find miracles in every age of 
the church, for example, when the tyrant Hunneric, in 
the fifth century, had the right hands of the members 
of a whole congregation chopped ofii*, at Typassus in 
Africa, and their tongues cut out to the root, because 
they opposed arianism, was it not a miracle that they 
spoke as perfectly as they did before that barbarous 
act 1 It is a well authenticated feet which is not dis- 
puted by Mosheim himself, and if you think that people 
can speak without a tongue, history further relates that 
two of these men having sinned with harlots, they in- 
stantly lost that miraculous power of s|>eech. When 



J3G OONVKi?SATiON>^ iyV" A 

saints are canoiiized by tlic cliurch; a strict investigation 
is made of miracles which tliey have performed. It is 
no humbug as deists and protestants so hghtly assert. 
But. supposing that there are no more miracles, those 
recorded in the old and new testaments, are enough to 
confound infidels. When a tree is newly planted, in a 
dry soil, it is watered until it has taken root in the 
ground, but when it is firmly rooted, it needs only for 
its growth the usual rain and dew of heaven. In the 
same manner, miracles were needed at the beginning 
of the church to establish the mission of Jesus Christ 
and his apostles, but the church is now firmly rooted 
and defies storms. When I hear a deist proclaiming 
that he would turn a Manichee, if he would see a 
miracle, and another that the sight of a mu-acle would 
render him crazy. I understand the words of Abraham 
who said : '^ They have Moses and the prophets ; if 
they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they 
believe if one rise again from the dead.'*' (Luke xvi.) 
Deists have now more than Moses and the prophets. 
They have Jesus Christ and the apostles ; neither will 
they believe new miracles if they shut their eyes to the 
evidence of the miracles related in the new testament. 
Deist C\ — I must confess that you have worked a re- 
volution in my ideas. There is something in miracles. 
If you are not tired vvith me, I will now express my 
doubts concerning prophecies. I do not deny the pos- 
sibility of prophecies ; but on reading the prophets, I 
have observed tliat they speak in arabiguous terms as 
the oracles of lieatliens ; thev are fond of alle<rories 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 137 

and parables : they use a mysterious language and 
sometimes perform strange actions to astonish a credu- 
lous people. When Daniel, for example, speaks of 
seven weeks and sixty-two weeks, and the half of a 
week, his way of reckoning looks equivocal and unin- 
telligible. With regard to the celebrated prophecy of 
the ruin of Jerusalem, in the new testament, there is 
nothing that a cute philosopher or a deep politician 
could not have foreseen and foretold, for the Jews 
hated the Romans, and it was natural that they would 
rebel and be destroyed. 

Missionary. — I am aware that Americans are not fond 
of parables and allegories. They use plain language. 
I even wonder that they have relished the proverbs of 
Franklin. It is an old saying that we must not dis- 
pute about taste. If the prophets have accommodated 
their Vv^ords and their ways to tlieir times and to the 
taste of their fellow-men, they deserve no blame, for 
we all know that eastern people, and even our wild 
Indians, are fond of images and use a figurative lan- 
guage. As to ambiguity and double-meaning, there is 
nothing oi the kind in prophecies. The prophets 
spoke candidly and forcibly and were understood. 
When the prophet Daniel predicted that from the go- 
ing forth of the word to build up Jerusalem regain to 
its destruction there should be seventy weeks, he spoke 
plainly, for the Jews had besides tlie week of seven 
days, a week of seven years. Seven years made a 
week of years and after seven weeks of years or seven 
times seven years they celebrated their grand jubilee. 
12* 



188 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Seventy times seven years, or four hundred and ninety 
years, or seventy weeks of years, were therefore synoni- 
mous expressions. The destruction of Jerusalem and 
of its temple predicted by the prophet Daniel and 
more explicitly by our Saviour, was not, as you suppose, 
an event that could have been calculated by human 
foresight. Read attentively the prophecy and its ful- 
fillment, as related by historians, some of whom are 
arians and pagans, and you will acknowledge that none 
but a down right skeptic can deny that the prediction 
of the ruin of Jerusalem and of its temple was a true 
prophecy, and its accomplishment a true miracle. The 
christians, who were forcAvarned by our Lord, iied in 
haste at the sight of the army of Titus to Pella, and 
were saved. The temple was burnt in spite of Titus. 
When, in the middle of the fourth century, the apos- 
tate Julian attempted to rebuild that temj)le, in order to 
disprove the prophecy of Daniel concerning it, (Daniel 
ix) he dug out the old foundation, (not a stone remain- 
ed upon a stone as predicted,) and then tempests, 
whirlwinds, earthquakes and fieiy eruptions convulsed 
the scene of the undertaking, maiming^ or blasting the 
thousands of Jews and other laborers employed in the 
work and rendering the completion of it utterly impos- 
sible. In the meantime, a luminous cross, surrounded 
with a circle of rays appeared in the heavens, and nu- 
merous crosses were impressed on the bodies and gar- 
ments of the persons present, so that many were con- 
verted. These prodigies are strongly attested by 
almost all the authors of the age. That miracle alone 



OATHOLTC MISSIONARY WITil AMERICANS. 139 

v^oaid prove to evidence the divinity of the christian 
religion. 

Deist C. — I am pleased with your answers, but I 
cannot drop the discussion so soon, for there are other 
objections against Christianity which I consider un- 
answerable. As it is now late, let us adjourn to some 
other day. 

Missionary. — Yes, come again, and I will do ]ny best 
to answer your objections. Before you leave, let me 
add another proof of the divinity of the christian re- 
ligion. It is that the whole life of our Saviour has 
been a pattern of every virtue, a continual practice of 
benevolence. All his miracles have been so many 
blessings and his doctrine is so conformable to reason 
that no miracles or prophecies ought to be needed 
to have it universally received. Instead of detaining 
you any longer I will leud you a few pages which I 
have selected from the work of De la Mennais. (Essay 
on Indifference,) The writer has been censured for 
displacing spiritual authority, but his works, and par- 
ticularly the first volume, contain many beautiful arti- 
cles on Christianity, some of which I have translated. 
I beg of you to read them at your leisure. 

Deists A, B, C. — We will. Good night. 

I gave them the following pages, in w^hicli that cele- 
brated author shows first, that Christianity has settled 
authority and liberty on a solid basis, and perfected (I 
might say, created) international law. Secondly, im- 
proved legislation. Thirdly, reformed morals and man- 
ners. (In justice to De la Mennais I must inform the 



u6 



OONVEKSATIONS OF A 



reader that the first part is only the substance of his 
article, Avhich is excellent but too long for my purpose.) 
The christian religion maintains order in society, be- 
cause she alone shows the origin and reason of autho- 
rity and duty. (De Bonald. Divorce Diss. Prelim, p. 
42.) What is authority? but the right to command, 
which implies the duty to obey ; but he who commands 
is above him who obeys, and so much above that we 
cannot imagine a greater superiority. All rationalists 
make man the slave of his fellow-men, because they 
cannot, on their principles, establish a lawful authority. 
Their starting point and ours is that all men are creat- 
ed equal. Power is then derived from God, according 
to the christian principle, or the basis of power and 
authority must be brutal force, superior talents, or a 
wilful cession of our natural rights. It is evident that 
force does not imply authority ; force is the power to 
compel the weak ; authority is the right to command . 
from the power to compel, results the necessity of pas- 
sive submission ; from the right to command results 
the duty of obedience. There is an immense difference 
between those terms. To confound tliem one must 
change the meaning of words and say that the wind, 
in blowing down a tree, exercises a right, and that the 
tree in falling down fulSlls a duty. Force, being a 
physical power, maintains order in the physical world, 
because it is directed by the wise laws of the creator, 
but it produces disorder in the moral world, because in 
the hands of free and impeiiect agents, it may be abu&ed 
by ambitious and wicked intrio'uers. Besides to make 



CATilOi.IC HISSIONAllY WITH AMKKiOANb. 141 

force the source of authority is to degrade man below 
the brutes, who are led by instinct to resist brutal force, 
jut if man has not the rio'ht to resist brutal force he is 
less than a brute, he is a machine. (Supposing that 
there are only two men in the world, if force constitute 
a right, the weaker may bring a mastif to his aid. Will 
that change the nature of things and give him a right ^) 
Are superior talents a better title to authority ? No. 
Angels, by their nature, are above men, but strictly 
speaking, we owe no obedience to angels. Let a 
seraph appear under a sensible form, i^^ there a reason 
to obey him? I perceive no right on his side, nor 
duty on ours, because created beings are naturally in- 
dependant of other created beings, so that if the high- 
est of celestial spirits, from his own accord and without 
any title but his will, would dictate laws and subject 
men to liis domination, I vrould see in him nothing 
more than a tyrant, and in liis subjects nothing more 
than slaves. How much more true when man arro- 
gates to himself a dominion over men, his equals, by- 
right, and often superior to him by reason and virtue. 
Is there a more iniquitous, a more insolent j^retension, 
a more abject slavery ? liousseau was right when he 
said that it takes a long alteration of sentiments and 
ideas to call deliberately our fellow-man, master. (Con- 
trat Social, 1. iv, ch. 8.) 

Let US now come to the third theory that power is de- 
vived from a wilful! cession of natural riglits. (^') 

(1.) The new world has rare opportiinities to see socieiies lorined and oon- 
stltntcd. New territories are organized into sovereign States and Com- 



142 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Individuals cannot give what they do not possess. No 
individual having authority in liiniself, authority can- 
not be communicated by a vote. Besides, supposing 
that individuals bind themseleves to obedience by a 
cession of their natural rights, I do not see, on the 
principles of infidels, what v>dll bind unborn children 
and future generations, to reject their agreement, and 
what will give stabirity to their government. In reali- 
ty, infidels cannot even bind themselves and find a 
sanction to their social contract, for self-love or interest 
being their only motive of submission to authority, let 
that interest cease and the objection to submit is at an 
end. Under whatever aspect ^ve may view that ideal 
and fictitious social contract, it is .nothing more than 
placing one's force at the dis|)osal of other men, but 
we have seen that force is not authority. Force can 
only lead to despotism or anarchy. Hence tliat opinion 
is not only folse but anti-social. 

The wisest heathens have not understood authority. 
Many of their rulers commanded their subjects to wor- 
ship them as God. In polite Greece, people talked 
much of independance and liberty, buf the v>^hole land 
was covered with slaves. They imagined to be free, 
when they saAv under them slaves more abject than 



panics, (almost sovereign in the wilderness,) enter into agreements ard 
compacts, in order to reach safely the mines of Idaho or the shores of the 
Pacific. The principle, that the majority rules, and that civil authority is 
derived from the people, is universal in America. Americans are not how- 
ever denying the christian principle (which is also a principle of natural 
law,) that authoi'ity comes from a higher source, from God himself. They 
therefore mean that authority comes from God, through the people. There 
are, no doubt, unbelievers who discard religion, and who make ihe people 
the source of power. Their ophiion is false and antisocial : it i'* moreover 
blasphemous, for it make* people. God. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY V/iTH AMEiUCAN-S. 143 

themselves. Not only did they sell or exchange men 
for lile animalSj they had them mm'dered, to diminish 
the number of slaves, and to habituate youth to the shed- 
ding of human blood ; they degraded them by drunk- 
eness, to give lessons of morality to children. They 
were themselves the abject slaves now cf a despot and 
then of a jealous capricious and insolent multitude. 
The sum of their history is a tissue of crimes, miseries, 
seditions, plots, proscriptions and massacres. 

Amongst the Romans the same errors worked in 
time the same effects. Revolutions and anarchy suc- 
ceeded wars. Some leaders of factions came to transact 
with other leaders for the life of a friend, of a relation, 
of a brother. Th^^ sj^eculated on proscription. At 
last, weary of dissensions they tamely submitted to a 
military despotism. A few monsters fed and fattened 
on that people who had conquered the Avorld. It is 
then proved by reasoning and experience that without 
the christian principle of autJiority there is nothing to 
be found but tyrants and slaves under absolute despot- 
ism or revolutions and crimes, in anarchy. 

Religion elevates man without inspiring pride. She 
says not you are your own master, but says : the only 
Being who has a legitimate and natural power over 
you is the infinite Being who has created you. His 
will is your law, and your happiness is to know and 
serve him. It is also your liberty, for liberty is to ob- 
tain your end without obstacles. Your end is perfection. 
Obey and be free. Where the spirit of God is, there 
is liberty. (2 Cor. iii.) When Jesus Christ came in- 



144 CONVKRSATIONS OF A 

to the world; man was the slave of man. By promul- 
gating tlie eternal truth : All power comes from God, 
(Rom. xiii.) authority and obedience are clearly defined. 
Power stands on a solid basis, and inspires veneratioi: 
and love. Man can obey without ceasing to be free, or 
rather he is free because he obeys. Tertulian in his 
Apologetic says : I am free, I have no other master 
than God almighty and eternai, who is also the master, 
of Caesar. (Tert. Apol. c. xxxvii.) From that sublime 
idea of power, the only foundation of moral obligations, 
flows the duty of obedience and social order. Author- 
ity is justified, obedience ennobled, and one must di'ead 
to command as he must glory in obeying. The noble 
empire of conscience replaces the tyranny of passions. 
Religion by concentrating all private interests, in one 
common interest, makes use of them to maintain order. 
By uniting the present to the future life, she frees our 
heart from affections to vanities, which it so ardently 
covets, and substitutes for hatred a general spirit of 
benevolence, making love the characteristic of Christian- 
ity. Love is the end of all precepts— ^the abridgment 
of the law. Xot to love is to renounce Christianity, it 
is to separate ourselves from the kingdom of Christ, a 
society of love, in order to join the kingdom of hatred 
of which the spirit of pride is the monarch. Xot only 
will a christian obey lawful authority, but love it, 
because it comes from God, and represents God in so- 
ciety ; and this love ascending from tlie subjects to the 
rulers, descends again from the rulers to the subjects, 
in streams of incessant blessino-s and becomes the sur- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 145 

est guarantee of the stability of governments and of 
the prosperity of nations. They are united by a power- 
ful mutual trust, which is the source of security and 
devotedness. The same principle keeps order also in 
the family, a small society by itself. " I bow my knee, 
says St. Paul, to the father of our Lord Jesus Christ of 
whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named." 
(Eph. iii. 15.) 

In all countries, where Christianity has been intro- 
duced, it has remodeled and refined society ; and as 
soon as it has disappeared, people have relapsed into a 
barbarous or semi-barbarous state. Christianity had 
formerly civilized a part of Asia and Africa. Fifteen 
centuries later it made men of the Antropophages of 
the new w^orld, and by the wonders that it has ope- 
rated in Paraguay, one might judge what the whole of 
American Indians would have been under its influence, 
if treacherous and cruel politicians had not wrested 
from the hands of religion, those infant tribes, which 
she had led to order, by means of truth. Whilst phi- 
losophers, with science and power on their side, at the 
head of twenty-five millions of men, in one of the 
richest countries of Europe (France) have realized 
nothing but anarchy, poverty and misery, a few poor 
priests, penetrating with a wooden cross in their hand, 
in wild regions inhabitated by savages, have erected, 
by the sole power of truth and virtue, a republic so 
perfect, that our imagination would not have dreamed 
of any thing so marvelous. One might think that some 
fortunate children of Adam had escaped the male die- 



146 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

tion of our race, to enjoy, in peace and innocence, the 
happiness of the just in the delightful garden of Eden. 
God permitted that, at least, once, religion could form 
a people to social life, without obstacles, to show, by a 
striking and undeniable proof, that in her dogmas and 
precepts are contained all truths really useful to men, 
and that it leads to the complete happiness of which his 
condition is capable on earth. 

Montesquieu, who is rather hostile than friendly to 
Christianity, has acknowledged those truths. " While 
'•Mohammedan princes, says he, are incessantly mur- 
'- dering or murdered, religion, amongst christians, ren- 
'• ders princes less timorous and conquerors less cruel. 
'•' The princes rely on their subjects, and subjects on 
'^ their princes. Truly wonderful ! The christian re- 
'• li^ion which seems to have no other end than our 
'• future felicity, renders us happy in this very life." 

•'• It is the christian religion, which, notwithstanding 
" the extent of the empire, and the peculiarity of the 
'• climate, has prevented the establishment of despot- 
'• ism, in Ethiopia, and carried in the midst of Africa 
'* the morals of Europe and its laws." ^ * * * ^ « 

'•If we remember, on one side, the continual murder 
'• of kings and leaders, Greeks or Romans, and on the 
''" other side, the destruction of people and cities by 
''those leaders, a Thimur, a Gengis-Kan, etc., who have 
" devastated Asia, we shall confess that we owe to 
" Christianity certain public rights in governments, and 
" international rights in wars, for which mankind can- 
'• not be too grateful. It is this international right 



CATHOLIC MISSIOXAKV V»^IT7I AMERICANS. 147 

" which causes thatj amongst iis^ victory leaves to the 
'• conquered those great things, life, liberty, laws, and 
'' always religion, if one is not wilfully blind.'' (Esprit 
des Lois, 1. xxiv, ch. 3.) ' 

Heathens did not love each other, and hated strangers. 
Extermination was their horrible rule of war. Every 
thing belonged to the conquerors, land, liberty and 
life. Humanity was a feeling unknown to the Romans, 
they had not even a word to express it, for the word ; 
Iliimanitas, meant only politeness and amenity. After 
a bloody victory, gained by Germanicus over the 
Germans, some of those unfortunate people, climbing 
on trees, sought in their branches a refuge against the 
furor of the Romans. The grave Tacitus cooly relates 
that it was fun to hit them with arrows, 2^^'^^ ludihriuni 
figehantur. One needs not to go farther than the first 
book of his annals to find several atrocities of the kind, 
related with the same apathy. The Roman army fell 
on a sudden, in the middle of the night, upon the 
Marses, who were fast asleep after the excesses of a 
festival. Neither age nor sex inspired pity. On the 
following year, the war w^is renewed and Germanicus, 
says the same Tacitus, implored the soldiers to kill 
every body. No iwisoners ! said he, they are of no use 
to us. To end the war exterminate the whole people ! 
(Tacitus Annals, 1. ii. ch. xxi.) 

The christian religion draws no distinction between 
a stranger and a fellow citizen, not even between friends 
and enemies. It commands us to see a brother in our 
fellow-man, and is naturally opposed to slavery and has 



148 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

abolislied it wherever it lias prevailed ; but wheu iu- 
terest, together with bad doctrines, kept alive an eter- 
nal enniity amongst peoj^le, when they recognized no 
belligerent right except the horrible right of extermina- 
lion, to reduce into slavery was a favor : to kill was 
justice, to reduce into slavery was the mercy of hea- 
thens. Happy was the conquered, when avarice pro- 
tected their lives Vv^ith chains and manacles ! Short 
sighted philanthropists of our days loudly condemn all 
WSLYS as unjust. Experience proves that their silly de- 
clamations are as vain as their theories. Christianity 
does not declaim. It prays for peace and establishes it 
by removing the causes of strife. When self preserva- 
tion obliges people to fight, it makes humanity, the first 
law of war. Religion penetrates into camps and on bat- 
tle fields, to banish from them hatred and cupidity ; to 
check the abuse of force : to soften victory and shelter 
the weak under her shield. It blunts the edge of the 
sword, when it cannot force it back into the scabbard, 
and pours oil on the wounds which it cannot prevent. 
History relates a striking contrast between Heathens 
and Christians. The emperor Constaatine, before his 
conversion, amused the people by throwing to wild 
beasts, in the amphitheater, the generals who had been 
spared to adorn his triumph. Pagan panegyrists eu- 
logized that barbarous custom. After his conversion, 
Constantino offered and paid a sum of money for every 
enemy vv'ho was captured alive, (Des changements etc. 
Par Naudet, t. ii, p. 54.') 

If you say that christian nations have been guilty of 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH A3IERICANS. 149 

atrocious deeds of cruelty, it does not help the cause of 
philosophism. Such deeds are its shame not ours ; for 
they always proceeded from some errors expressly con- 
demned by religion, or from a contempt of her maxims, 
contempt which is in reality nothing else than unbelief. 
It is wrong to condemn Christianity because its doc- 
trines Iiave been sometimes discarded, or deny that it 
renders men meek, merciful and humane, because, by 
ceasing to be christians, some have become hard-hearted 
and cruel ! Let it be moreover remarked that devasta- 
tions and massacres, which fill up the annals of ancient 
people, were entirely according to their rules of war, 
whilst amongst us, those acts of cruelty, are in violation 
of our laws. It cannot be denied, besides, that they 
are infinitely more scarce than amongst heathens, and 
the deep horror which they inspire is itself a proof that 
public OjDinion has entirely changed. 

2d. The christian religion has not worked a less com- 
plete and happy revolution in legislation, than in pub- 
lic rights and international law. Legislation is no longer 
the dictate of mere force, its object is no longer to pro- 
mote the interests of individuals ; its aim is to estabhsh 
justice which is the interest of all ; but justice, being 
order according to God's will, the laws of christian na- 
tions are the expression of the will of legitimate power, 
and it follows that every member of society must obey 
that will, as the will of God, for lie that resisteth poioer^ 
resisteth God. (Rom. xiii, 2L) In this manner, all 
social truths flow from that grand truth, that all power 
comes from God, and the fundamental principle of the 
13* 



150 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

political order, is also the fundamental principle o f 
legislation. We obey the laws for the same reaso n 
that we bow to constituted authorities, and the doctrine 
which gives stability and mildness to power, gives also 
strength and perfection to civil laws. We do not admire 
enough the wisdom and beauty of christian laws. They 
express so perfectly the true relations between social 
beings that this very conformity with our nature pre- 
vents us to be struck with their perfection, as we ought 
to be. When all is in its place and in perfect harmony 
reflection alone will make us wonder. The simplicity of 
order conceals its grandeur. The sight of a living body 
produces no marked impression ; let us behold an auto- 
maton, suddenly we are struck with admii'ation. Our 
mind ought to go beyond the mere outward forms of 
governments. Ancient legislation tended to oppress 
the weak ; our own leaves no kind of weakness unpro- 
tected, and we are not astonished at it, because of the 
perfect conformity of laws, with natural equity. It is, 
however, certain that religion alone has been able to 
give, and that she alone is able to perpetuate this their 
noble characteristic. ^ 

All right to make laws emanates from God. On other 
principles, I see nothing but force and arbitrary wills ; 
nothing but slaves and tyrants. Interest takes the 
place of justice. If laws are made by men and derive 
theii' force from men, we can onlv hate them. Leg^is- 
lators have to conquer hatred by flattery and condescen- 
sion. Hence the ao-rarian laws amono- the Romans 
and all the laws tliat oppress the weak. The best laws 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 151 

being the most opposed to passions, public security 
must be guarded by sheer force, and conscience being of 
no avail, fear must supply its dictates. When force is 
considered as the ultimate reason and resource of power, 
men lose all ideas of justice and virtue. The laws of 
ancient people and particularly of republics, were conse- 
quently partial and oppressive. Slavery, in oppressing 
a weak class of people, favored the pride of the free 
citizens. Poligamy and divorce, in oppressing the 
weak sex, favored the pleasures and the caprices of the 
husband; the horrible laws against debtors, in op- 
pressing the poor, favored the cupidity of the rich ; 
the right of life or death granted to parents in op- 
pressing the weak child, favored the avarice and other 
passions of the father, the head of the family. ' A man 
came to be the master of millions of people and his will 
the only law. 

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. As soon as 
legitimate authority is discarded, all is tottering, all is 
in disorder. The clearest truths become problematical. 
What is more evident than the natural equality of men "? 
And still reason during twenty centuries has founded 
society upon the slavery of a part of its members, and 
has not even thought that it was possible or advisable 
to abolish slavery ! Humanity owes that great blessing 
to religion. I quote again from Montesquieu. He says : 
'' Plutarcus, in the life of Numa, has remarked that in 
^' the times of Saturnus there were neither masters nor 
" slaves. In our days, Christianity has brought back 
"that age." (Esprit des Lois, 1. xv, ch. 8.) Let it 



152 convp:rsations of a 

-not be forgotten that ancient philosophers, so prolix in 
vain theories, never dreamt to raise their voice in favor 
of universal freedom. They have not even expressed 
a desire of it. Human wisdom contemplated without 
emotion or surprise, the oppression of man. The wisest, 
being themselves insensible to their own degradation, 
remained stupidly indifferent to a more miserable 
servitude. It was necessary that wisdom itself should 
descend upon earth, to inspire men with, the desire to 
be emancipated. To become free, it Vv^as first needed 
that man should believe in freedom. The dignity of man 
was so little known, that human beings were valued at 
a price, were bought and sold as vile animals, and to 
abolish that infamous traffic the Son of God had to be 
sold for thirty pieces of silver. That abominable sale- 
lias been the price of our redemption. Reasoning, 
far from freeing man, would forever have riveted his 
chains, since by discussions on social order, Rousseau 
himself argues the necessity of slavery. (Contrat So- 
cial, 1. iii, ch. 15.) If such ideas have been entertained 
in the eighteenth century, shall I believe, that the rea- 
son of pagans would have inspired men with a more 
generous opinion ! 

The family is the type of civil society. No family, 
no society. But polygamy and divorce, which is the 
worst kind of polygamy, destroys the fiunily, oppresses 
the mother, oppress the child, and introduce anarchy in 
the domestic circle. It is religion alone that has pro- 
claimed the indissolubility of the marriage-tie ; and even 
after having known the principle, and a long Avliile ob- 



CATKOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 153 

served its admirable effects, reason, enlightened by 
Christianity but protesting against it, has again chosen 
to transform marringe into a simple contract, into a 
lease, at the expiration of which innocent children are 
bereft of one parent and alas ! too often of both of 
them. 

Is there a crime more unnatm*al, than the murder of a 
child by his father, or a more barbarous action than the 
exposition of innocent children condemned by passion 
to be born and not to live ? Still the laws of almost all 
ancient people permitted the destruction and murder of 
children. It is yet the prevailing practice in many 
parts of the world. Let reason argue for and against 
the practice, calculate the interest of a State already 
overcharged with inhabitants, the burden of parents ^ 
the advantages to the child who is spared so many sor- 
rows and perhaps so many crimes, I doubt not that 
reason, if avarice sharpens a little her logic, will pro- 
nounce the shortening of a troublesome life a lawful 
deed, nay, a work of humanity. Let it not be supposed 
that I deal in fictions. Whole people have applied those 
reasonings not only to infancy, but to old age, and they 
do not in fact, materially differ from those advanced by 
Rousseau to justify cruelty against the offsprings of 
libertinism. Eternal thanks be given to Christianity 
who considers a child, that is thrown away as a useless 
and worthless being, as the image of God, sacred to the 
eyes of religion. He who ridicules that holy religion 
owes perhaps his very life to her fostering care. Who 
knows, but that for Christianity, unnatural parent-^^ 



154 COXVEIJSATIONS OF A 

would liot have drovrned him in a ri\'Gr, as it is done 
ill India, or exposed him on the public highways, as in 
China, to be devoured by animals or thrown into a 
dung cart vrith the mud and filth of the streets. Let 
it be knowji to men vn'Iio call themselves wise, because 
they despise truth, and deep thinkers, because they 
can arrange a sophism, let it be knoAvn that baptism 
has saved more children than war has destroyed lives ; 
and yet, scurrilous philosophists are not ashamed to 
rank baptism with idle superstitions, and to laugh at a 
sublime institution, which, in a mere political light, is 
the greatest of blessings and a master piece of humani- 
ty! 

The meekness and equity of our penal laws, their 
severe impartiality, the infinite precautions of legisla- 
tors to prevent mistakes in their applications, are also 
the admirable effects of the spirit of Christianity. The 
christian religion alone has taught man to respect man. 
Rationalists and Heathens despise Him. That is what 
made Tertulian exclaim, when he reproached the perse 
cutors with their ferocious disdain oi humanity : 
man^ so great if you Icneiu your dignity I (A230I. ch. xlviii.) 
The barbarous pagans, besides enslaving man, trifled 
with his life and with his blood. If a citizen was mur- 
dered at Rome, all his slaves were put to death ; if the 
master was accused, they w^ere tortured. How differ- 
ent are our laws ! If a king is anointed, he has to take 
that solemn oath ; '• I swear to observe and to cause to 
'' be observed justice and mercy in every judgment, that 
" the almighty and merciful God may have mercy on 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS- 155 

" ine." Severe equity, meekness, cliity, the reason of 
duty, the precept, its sanction, all is included in that 
oath. 

A characteristic of the christian religion is to teach 
without reasoning. She says: Do this and you shall 
live. (Luke, x, 18.) Jesus taught with authority, for 
lie was God. * * * * ''^ Reason, without a guide, can 
only lead to doubts and errors. What would happen, 
lor example if the right to hold property would be sub- 
mitted to the scrutiny of reason '? What would not be 
said, what has not been said to demonstrate the nullity 
and injustice of that right ? Philosophists, I want no 
shining periods, but a plain answer. Which title is the 
clearest and the strongest, the law of God that says ; 
'•you shall not covet your neighbor's house, nor his 
fiCld, nor his ox, nor anything that belongs to him." 
(Deut. V, 21.) Or a law based on the reasonings of 
Raynal, Diderot or Rousseau on the origin and founda- 
tion of property'? (i) 

3d. Good morals are a complement to good laws. 
Pagans themselves said : What are laws, without mo- 
rals '? Of what use is a code, if religion does not 
prompt the heart to love order? Besides, laws only 
forbid certain private and public wrongs, without com- 
manding any virtue. That beautiful part of legislation 



(1.) Ill the begining of the world, we are informed by Holy Writ, the all 
bonutiful creator gave to man "dominion over all the earth, and over the 
Mshee of the eea, and over the fowls of the air, and over every living thing that 
moveth upon the earth. (Gen. i, 28.) This the only trne and solid founda- 
tion of man's dominion over external thlng«?, whatever airy and metaphy- 
fcical notions may have been started by fanciful writers upon this subject. 
(Blackstone's Comm. Book, ii, ch. 1.) 



156 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

which regulates the y\^hole man, his most secret desires 
and his most fleeting afiections is the exchisive privil- 
ege of religion. How many crimes are ignored by 
human justice ? How many wicked practices are toler- 
ated ? Religion tolerates no disorder ; she forbids the 
veiy thought of evil, and commands us to be perfect as 
our father, who is in heaven, is perfect. (Math. y. 48.) 
It is truly wonderful that, whilst she humbles human 
pride by the sublimity of her precepts, and checks pre- 
sumption by the sight of a higher and higher perfection 
she sustains the hope of penitent sinners, by the im- 
mensity of the mercy of God^ and banishes despair 
from their hearts. As to philosophism it takes away the 
hopes of the just. Where is the unfeeling man who 
has not admired the beauty of the gospel's morality ! 
What purity and what dej)th in its precepts ! What 
perfection in its counsels ! What a touching love of 
man ! What heavenly sweetness and inexpressible 
unction in the simplicity of its maxims ! Some violate 
that law, but to deny its excellence is impossible, unless 
it be by a wretch who has lost all notions of holiness. 
Its fruits are peace and happiness. She fosters union, 
consoles the afflicted, prevents or repau's the evils of 
nature and society, and if men, by obedience, would 
only consent to be happy, she would change this world 
into a heavenly paradise. 

See now, how Christianity obliges men to be happy. 
It does not present an abstract theory or a fanciful type 
of virtue that pleases the imagination, but disheart- 
ens the weak, by its sublimity ; it offers to our sight 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 157 

virtue itself and perfection in the person of Jesus 
Christ, God and man ; and, adding to the precepts a 
sanction of infinite consequence, it opens under the feet 
of the wretched sinner the dark abyss of hell, that land 
of eternal torments and despair, and offers to the just 
an infinite reward in heaven. No rewards, no punish- 
ments that are not infinite, are worthy the goodness 
and justice of God, or strong enough to maintain order, 
since the hope of a sovereign good, or the fear of a 
sovereign evil are too often ineffectual to control the 
allurements of our senses and the cravings of passions. 
On this point, as on all others, the eminent superiority 
of the christian religion over philosophism, is indisput- 
able. When philosophists talk of duty, that word has 
no meaning in their mouth, for they cannot do so much 
as to give a clear definition of duty. But supposing 
that they have demonstrated the reality of virtue, what 
is virtue without a sanction ? It is a phantom. Which 
are the motives that will induce a man to sacrifice every 
thing to virtue, even happiness "? I listen to religion 
and understand her when she speaks of eternal punish- 
ments and rewards. Such motives and reasons are of an 
infinite consequence ; my reason is convinced, my heart 
is moved. But where is the heaven of philoso]3hists t 
Where is their hell ? Where is the immortal palm of 
the just "? Let it be seen, and perhaps, then, I will 
strive for it. But away with nonsense ? What is dis- 
honor, (their pretended penalty, if I listen to passions) 1 
What real good can I lose by it "? How can the opin- 
ion of men affect my being ? Will dishonor take away 
14 



158 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

my health, my riches, my sense of pleasm*e, my inde- 
pendance ? The fear of dishonor is nothing if I do 
not fear it ; and should I be so pusillanimous as to dread 
it, it can be avoided, as it happens every day, by hiding 
my guilt under the veil of secrecy. But, if I escape the 
eyes of man, I cannot escape conscience. Remorses 
are then the penalty of sin. That is more serious. Let 
us see. Granting, that remorses of conscience are not 
a prejudice, (as asserted by many philosophists) or that 
it is a prejudice, that cannot be extirpated, it remains 
certain that being placed between a pleasure which I 
covet, and a remorse w^hich I dread, the choice between 
crime and virtue is an affair of sensation. If the de- 
sire is too strong, I fall ; if fear predominates, I resist ; 
but I deny that a single passion will ever be subdued 
by the mere apprehension of remorses for violating ab- 
stract laws of order. Let us conclude that philosoph- 
ism can only oppose vain restraints to crime. I add, 
that it can only offer chimerical rewards to virtue. 
What does it promise ? A name, which I am not at 
all certain to enjoy ; a fame and reputation which are 
indifferent to the w^ise and which cannot heal one sor- 
row ; and even that promise is without a guaranty, for 
Tv^ho can assure me that virtue will not bring insult, 
sneers, hatred and persecution upon my head ? Exam- 
ples are not w^anting of good men who have reaped no 
better fruits from their fidelity to painful duties. As a 
compensation for fame, I am reminded of the joy that 
accompanies the good testimony of conscience. What 
derision ! The joy of poverty, of hunger, of thirst, of 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMEPvICANS. 159 

sickness, of bodily afflictions, of agony of soul ; the 
joys of dungeons, of scaffolds, of misery destitute of 
hope ! I do not know what to compare to that joy, 
unless it be a similar joy, which some pretend to be 
derived from the barren contemplation of order, in the 
system of fetalists. What consolation is the beauty of 
a machine, to a man who is crushed between its wheels ? 
And yet, philosophism has no stronger motive to pre- 
vent evil and encourage virtue. Being destitute of 
principles that require the sacriiice of self-interest to 
virtue, a sacrifice which is the essence of virtue, it has 
stupidly asserted that virtue and self-interest are identi- 
cal. If happiness necessarily followed the practice of 
duty, men guided by their feelings, would, no doubt, 
necessarily be virtuous, in order to be happy, but there 
is nothing more evident than the very reverse of that 
order of things, and religion who has the fullness of 
truth, does not hide it from her disciples : ^' that if our 
'* hopes are confined to this life, w^e are, ol all men, the 
'^ most miserable." (1 Cor. xv, 19.) 

The interest of a christian is to gain heaven, at the 
cost of whatever toils and sufferings he may have to 
endure in this life. As to those who expect no heaven, 
they have only one interest, which is to be happy in 
this world, cost what it may. Now, happiness does 
not consist in resisting our desires and inclinations, 
in enduring privations and death for* the felicity of 
others, without any hope of reward. Can it be the 
interest of the poor to remain in want, w^hen he can so 
easily appropriate to himself a part of the superfluous 



160 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

share of the rich .^ But lie endangers his life or his 
liberty by stealing. I understand you. To live and to 
be free is a greater interest than to satiate his hunger. 
Therefore, if he has a certainty of escaping death or the 
jail, the other interest remaining without equipoise, will 
constitute a diiferent duty. Take away the sheriff, and 
morality changes. His presence, or the fear of his 
grasp is the spring of all duties ; but that powerful 
moralist cannot reach all cases. The greatest part of 
secret disorders which slov/ly undermine society or dis- 
turb its harmony, as avarice, cupidity, egotism, ingrati- 
tude, calumny, sensuality are not within its line of duty. 
I doubt if he can prevent the seduction of your wife or 
daughter. When the heat of passion, and a certainty 
that sin will remain unknown will combine, it is well, 
but I fear of little use to say that our true interest is to 
reject the allurements of pleasure. Is it also our inter- 
est to give up habits, ease, projDcrty, family and country, 
all that is dear to our hearts, for the benefit of our fel- 
low-men, or the welfare of the state ? A comparison 
of the virtues of unbelievers with those of christians, 
does not show, so far, that the principle of self-interest 
is in any way preferable to the christian principle. I 
am at a loss to discover in self-interest the reason of the 
greatest sacrifice that society can exact from its mem- 
bers, and which a man can make to his fellow-men, 
viz : the sacrifice of one's own life. All interests here 
below are subordinate to the supreme interest of life. 
He who gives his life, gives every thing, even hope. 
Before I concede that philosophists can reach that sub- 



CATHOLIC 3IISSI0NARY WITH AMERICANS. 161 

lime degree of virtue Avhicli consists in sacrificing their 
lives, let them show me in niliilism an interest that can 
make np for the loss of all interests ; let them show me 
in the cold dust of the grave, in a lifeless corpse, that 
shall never rise again, the reward of the most heroical 
devotedness. 

Sophisms do not destroy the reality of things. Self- 
interest cannot be so blended with i^ublic interest, as to 
preclude all opposition between the two. In a thousand 
cases the good of society will require that I suffer pov- 
erty, that I consume my strength and waste my health 
by hard work, to enrich my neighbors ; that I restrain 
my desires, inclinations and affections, in a word, that 
I suffer and die. Until it is demonstrated that misery, 
sufferings and death are in themselves better than 
riches, pleasure and life, it will remain false, evidently 
false, that self-interest, separated from the fear of future 
punishments, and the hope of future rewards, is the 
rule of duty and the foundation of morality. If there 
existed a country where that doctrine universally pre- 
vailed, the most horrible confusion would replace order, 
and its inhabitants ought to fly in haste from that un- 
happy land where crime would reign arrogant and re- 
morseless under the name of virtue. 

If you wish to divide men, to create hatred, to stimu- 
late egotism, cupidity and all passions, call into play 
self-interest. If you wish on the contrary, to unite the 
members of a family or of a State, to promote harmony 
and brotherly love, see that every one's interest be iden- 
tified with his neighbor's welfare, and that all seek the 
14* 



162 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

puVjIic good. Such is the spirit of cliristianity, and no 
people or society has existed without more or less abun- 
dant participation of that spirit and of the truths from 
which it emanates. Its total extinction amongst a people, 
would be tlie death of that people, as its perfect de- 
velopment is its life. To sacrifice every tiling to self- 
interest is the natural inclination of man, because man 
naturally prefers himself to every thing else. The 
principle of self-interest is therefore essentially opposed 
to the principle of duty, so that a man who has no 
other principle of action than self-interest is essentially 
anti-social, abnegation of self by each member of socie- 
ty being the first condition of its existence. Religion, 
which is a society between God and man is therefore 
based on the sacrifice of God to man and of man 
to God. Human society is likewise based on the mu- 
tual donation or sacrifice of man to man or of each man 
to all men, and the welfare of society essentially re- 
quires such a sacrifice. The evangelical doctrine of 
self abnegation, so shocking to nature is merely the ex- 
pression of that truth, and the promulgation of that 
grand social law. Hence it is that, Einong christian 
nations, every public function is associated with the idea 
of devotedness or consecration. Sublime idea ! which 
religion has rendered so familiar that it scarcely excites 
our attention. We enjoy the blessings of Christianity, 
as we enjoy the blessings of nature. The more they 
are grand, numerous and incessant, the less they aston- 
ish our mind and move our heart. Do we like, how- 
ever, to know the difference between our social state 



CATHOLIC MISSIOXAKY WITH AMERICANS. 1C3 

and that of pagans, let us hear Jesus Christ himself. 
There is more truth in one of his sentences, than in 
the dissertations of all the philosophers of the world. 
Jesus, calling his disciples, said to them : " you know 
that they who seem to rule over the gentiles, lord it 
over them and their princes have power over them." 
Thus, on one side, is the show, I might say, the shadow 
of power, and in reality, the tyranny of force ; on the 
other side is abject servitude ; consequently the features 
of pagan society are absence of authority, brutal force 
and slavish submission, instead of obedience ; but, adds 
our Saviour " It is not so among you, but whosoever 
will be first among you, shall be the servant of all, for 
the Son of man also, is not come to be ministered unto, 
but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for 
many." (Mark x, 42, 45.) 

Here all is changed. Power established for the in- 
terest of all, becomes a duty ; and obedience, a right. 
To reign is to minister and the sovereign is only the 
first servant of his people. The higher his position, 
the more laborious his ministry ; and whilst there is not 
a member of society v\^ho has not the right to be minis- 
tered unto, he alone, deprived of the privilege of obey- 
ing and sacrificing his life, as the son of man, to the 
happiness of his fellow-men, remains among freemen a 
slave of order and of his own people. Such is the chris- 
tian society. 

The spirit of love and sacrifice incessantly militates, 
more or less successfully as faith is more or less active, 
against the pernicious principle of self-interest. The 



164 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

entire forsaking of that interest is the soul of religion 
and of political institutions, and nothing in states is 
lasting and truly social that does not rest on that basis. 
Self-abnegation is the first condition of all christian au- 
thority. There are but few men who can bear that 
burden. Image and source of all power that preserves 
social order, the royalty of Jesus begins in the poverty 
of a manger, grows and toils in fatigues and anxieties, 
gathers occasionally a feAv palms, is cheered with fleet- 
ing acclamations from the crowd which are soon follow- 
ed by maledictions and cries of death, sinks in agony in 
the garden, is insulted in the pretorium and finally is 
nailed to a cross with a diadem of thorns on its head, 
where it expires blessing its executioners, on the moun- 
tain which crowns the valley of Topeth. 

It is the lot of narrow minds to be struck with the 
faults of individuals and to overlook the general spirit 
of institutions. The accusations against the nobility 
and clergy proceed in a great measure, from that narrow- 
ness of mind. Is there, in all antiquity, any thing 
that can be compared to the hereditary consecration to 
the public good of some families and certain classes of 
citizens, in the honorable functions of the priesthood, the 
magistracy or the militia? Consecration so entire, 
sacrifice of man to man so perfect, that nothing is ex- 
cepted, neither rest nor domestic enjoyments, nor pro- 
perty nor life. You may judge from a single fact of 
the revolution which religion has worked on that sub- 
ject. The severe Brutus practiced, sword in hand, the 
most horrible usuries in his provinces without a blemish 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY AVITII AMERICANS. 165 

on his reputation ; amongst us a statesman, wlio would 
thus degrade himcelf by selfishness, could not escape a 
note of infamy. 

We have seen, a few years ago, philosophism sup- 
planting Christianity and deluging society with horrible 
crimes. It has not created surprise because nothing is 
more easily conceived than the fall from good to evil, 
or the depravity of the human lieart ; it is the ten- 
dency of our nature. Eighteen centuries before, Chris- 
tianity victorious over philosophism, had introduced 
all virtues into society, and never had such a prodigy 
astonished the world, for the passage from evil to good, 
and the exertions of a people to rise, from dissolution 
and anarchy to the perfection of order, is evidently 
above nature. Hence pagans could not, at first, under- 
stand any thing of christian morals. They beheld with 
surprise and were in a manner scandalized at the sub- 
lime disinterestedness, perfect union, universal benevo- 
lence, and sweet and at the same time severe morality 
which contrasted so strangely with their vices. Virtue 
was a frightful mystery to them. A secret anxiety 
estranged them from the disciples of Jesus Christ of 
whom the holy scriptures give in a few words such a 
wonderful account : '' And the multitude of the be- 
lievers had but one heru't and one soul ; neither did 
any one of them say that of the things which he pos- 
sessed any thing was his own ; but all things were 
common to thein." (Acts iv, 32.) The vrorld, stupe- 
fied at that sight, became alarmed ; reason, destitute of 
faith, could not soar so high ; men whose sole motive 



166 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

of actions was self-interest, were forced to impute 
secret crimes to christians in order to explain their pub- 
lic virtues. It was partly to confute those odious ac- 
cusations, and to explain to pagans the origin of the 
virtues which they calumniated that Tertullian publish- 
ed his admirable Apologeticks : " I appeal," says he, 
" to your own records ; is that thief, that murderer? 
^'that sacrilegist, that seductor inscribed as a chris- 
'* tian on your registers ? And when christians, as 
" such, are brought before your tribunals, is there one 
" found guilty of such crimes 1 The jails and the mines 
" are filled with your own people, it is on your own 
^' people that wild beasts are fattening, and it is amongst 
^^ your own people that the host of criminals destined 
'^to public games are recruited. There you see no 
■'' christian or he is only a christian. If he is charged 
^^ with another crime, hold it for certain that he is not a 
'' christian." 

" We alone, therefore, are innocent, and it is no won- 
^^ der, since innocence is for us a necessity, yes a neces- 
sity. Instructed by God , we know virtue perfectly, 
" it being revealed by a perfect master,^nd we practice 
''* it faithfully, by order and under the eyes of an awful 
"judge. As to you, it is by men that it is taught and 
" commanded ; you cannot, therefore, know it as we do, 
^' nor practice it as we do, you w^ant everything — the 
" plenitude of truth, and the necessary sanction of duty. 
" Of what avail is the wisdom of man to show what is 
" truly good ? And what his authority to command it ? 
^' The former is as easily mistaken as the latter is de- 



ii 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 167 

"spised. Which is in fact the most excellent law, the 
" one that says ; you shall not kill, or the one that forbids 
" even anger? Which is more perfect, simply to for- 
" bid adultery, or the very concupiscence of the eyes . 
" simply to forbid evil actions, or even wicked words ; 
'^ simply to forbid injuries, or even the revenge of inju- 
" ries 1 You must know, besides, that what favors virtue 
" in your laws, is borrowed from a more ancient law, the 
" law of God. What is the authority of human laws 
"which man evades, by concealing his crime, or violates 
" heedlessly or willfully ? How short are human penal- 
" ties which cannot extend beyond life ? As for us, 
" persuaded that we shall be judged by God who sees 
" all things, and that our punishment shall be everlast- 
" ing, we are the only men who sanction virtue, because 
" we know it perfectly, because there is no darkness 
"thick enough to conceal crime, because its punish 
" ment is not only long but eternal. We fear the sover- 
" eign Being, who is also to be feared by the judges of 
" the men who fear him. We fear God, and not the 
''proconsul." (Tert. Apol. c. xlv.) 

If philosophism has more effectual motives, let it 
speak, if not, let it be silent, and allow religion to reign 
in peace over society, which she alone can organize and 
maintain in order. Notwithstanding the boasts of pride, 
the hand of man is too weak to hold the sceptre of the 
moral world. Never, at the voice of reason, and by 
authority of human laws have there been virtues, like 
those described by Tertulian. " We do good without 

acception of persons, because we do it for ourselves. 



168 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

'^ expecting our reward, not from man, whose gratitude 
" and praises we disdain, but from God who has com- 
" manded us universal love. Every action, word, de- 
" sire or thought that can hurt our neighbors are forbid- 
'^ den. * '" * * Whom could we hate, since we are 
" commanded to love our enemies ? Whom could we 
" offend, since we are forbidden to take revenge upon 
" our offenders, not to share their malice ? Be yourselves 
" our judges. How often do you pursue christians, 
" through blind prevention or to obey the laws ? How 
" often, without w^aiting for orders, and through mere 
'' hatred, does not a furious rabble stone our persons, or 
" set fire to our houses ? In the fury of bacchanals, 
'' the dead themselves are not spared. Their corpses 
" are exhumed from their tombs, those sacred asylums 
" of death, and their remains already mangled and 
'^mutilated, are outraged, torn to i)ieces and wantonly, 
" scattered. Have we ever retaliated that infernal 
" hatred which pursues its victims beyond the grave ? 
'^ A single night and a few torches would suffice to 
" avenge our wrongs, but God forbid that our divine 
" religion would have recourse to human means to re- 
^' venge itself, or that it should regret to be tried by 
" persecutions ! * * * * Being indifferent to honors 
" and glory, your public assemblies have no attraction 
" for us. We renounce your feasts, because of their su- 
" perstitious origin. We liave nothing to do with the 
" extravagance of the circus, the obscenities of the thea- 
''- ter, the barbarity of the Arena, and the frivolity of the 
'- gymnasium. We are united into one body by having 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 160 

" the same faith, the same clisciphiie and the same hope. 
" We meet to besiege God by our prayers. That vio- 
" lence pleases him. We jjray to God for the emperors, 
^'for their ministers, for all powers, for all men, for 
" peace, for the postponment of the end of the world. 
" We meet to read the scriptures, from which we draw, 
" according to our wants, lessons and light. That di- 
'•'vine word confirms our faith, strengthens our hope, 
" increases our confidence and fortifies our fidelity to dis- 
" cipline and to divine law. * '^ '^ * * ^' Elders pre- 
" side, they obtain that honor, not through bribery 
" but by their merits. The things of God are not 
'' sold for money. If Ave have a kind of treasure, its 
'' source is pure and is not a shame to religion. Every 
" one furnishes a small amount montlily, or when he 
'' pleases, if he has the will or the means to give. There 
" is no tax and all ofierings are voluntary. These holy 
'' deposits of piety are not squandered in banqueting and 
" riotino'j but applied to feed and bury the poor, to re- 
" lieve destitute orphans, aged servants, or the victims 
" of shipwrecks, and if there are christians, condemned 
" to the mines, exiled or imprisoned, for the cause of 
" God, religion opens her hands in their behalf." 

" There are nevertheless people who calumniate us 
" for these works of love. ' See how they love each 
" other,' do they say, for our enemies hate each other, 
" ' see how they are ready to die for each other,' as to 
" them they would rather cut each other's throat. As 
" to the name of brother which we give to our fellow- 
" members, they denigrate it, no doubt, because amongst 



170 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" them tlie names of relationship are only lying ex- 
" pressions of love. We are also your brethren by 
" natural ties, nature being our common mother, but 
''• you hardly deserve the name of men, because you 
"are bad brethren. How more truly brethren and 
" worthy of that name are those w^ho acknowledge the 
'^ same father who is God, and who being delivered 
"from the same darkness and born to truth, contem- 
" plate the light of the spirit of holiness. But perhaps 
" our fraternity is held as illegitimate because it is not 
" a comedy, or because we divide as brethren, what 
" among you divides brothers. When the hearts and 
" feelings are united, earthly goods are common pro- 
" perty. Hence all is common amongst us, with the 
" exception of our wives. What vve claim as our own? 
" is the only thing that others have in common. They 
'' make an exchange of the rights of marriage, accord- 
" ing to the example, no doubt, of their wise men, of 
" a Socrates among the Greeks, of a Cato, among the 
" Romans, who ceded to their friends their lawful wives 
" to raise children from strange fathers ! Was it 
" against their will ? I know not ; biitT what regard for 
" chastity could those wives entertain, v/hen their hus- 
" bands cared so little for them. Shameful examples of 
" Grecian wisdom and of Roman gravity ! A philoso- 
" pher and a censor to be the promoters of prostitu- 
" tion !" (Tert. cli. xxxvi and xxxvii, etc.) 

In tracing a portrait of virtues, so sublime, so humble, 
so pure, so touching Tertullian appeals to the testi- 
mony of pagans. He bids them defiance and challenges 



CATHOLIC MISSlONAin' WITH AMERICANS. 171 

them to belie him if he advanees aught tlmt was not 
publicly known. In our days, philosophists not daring 
to dispute a fact which is attested by history, have en- 
deavored to make it a proof that the rapid propagation 
of the gospel is an effect of natural means. In order to 
deny that Christianity has been divinely established, 
they are obliged to confess that it brings forth divine 
virtues. (Gibbons and others.) During three thou- 
sand years, in the midst of human miseries, men have 
never thought of relieving suffering humanity. We 
do not find in ancient history the least vestiges of 
institutions in behalf of the poor. Never has philoso- 
phism or paganism dried up a tear. Although com- 
miseration is a natural instinct, and because it is a 
natural instinct, it is dried up by reasoning. Seneca 
calls it the defect of a weak soul. Do not lament with 
those who lament, was the lesson of Marcus Aurelius, 
and the common doctrine of the Stoics. The wise, 
says Virgilius, does not commiserate the poor. " Ne 
que ille aut dohii vu'serans inajyevi, ant invidit hahenti.'^ 
What a contrast between that cold egotism and chris- 
tian charity ! On the contrary, the greatest miracle of 
Christianity, is to make us feel pain for sorrows which 
are not our own, and that miracle will not be denied, 
because, if the heart is not impressed by it, the eyes, at 
least, will bear testimony to its reality. Come and fol- 
low the footsteps of that religiou of love. Count, if 
possible, the blessings which it pours, with full hands, 
upon mankind, and the works of mercy which it in- 
spires and which she alone can reward. In the third 



172 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

century, during a plague wliicli desolated a part of the 
empire, j^agans abandoning their relations and friends, 
hurried away to escape by flight the contagious disease. 
The christians, who were then so cruelly persecuted, 
took care of all sick people, whether faithful or idolaters, 
and took revenge, as christians revenge themselves, by 
sacrificing their lives to save their enemies. How 
many such examples are narrated in the history of the 
church ! So many blessings put idolaters to shame. 
The Emperor Julian wrote to Arsaces, his pagan pontiff 
in Asia : " Is it not shameful that the Galileans feed 
our poor besides their own V Christianity has not de- 
generated w^ith age. Its annals are filled up with ser- 
vices of all kinds, which it has rendered from age to 
age to humanity. The same spirit of love which has 
brought forward so many prodigies, in the first centu- 
ries, continues to operate wonders in our days. Who 
does not remember with a deep emotion those Spanish 
monks, who, in Malaga, a city desolated by pestilence, 
went from street to street, inviting with the sound of a 
bell, those who needed their services to call them in. 
Almost every one of them died a martyr of charity. 
But let us pass over examples so numerous that they 
would fill up volumes ; let us say nothing of a Borro- 
meus, a Belzunce, a Vincent of Paul, who in calamit- 
ous times fed all provinces, whose immense charity ex- 
tended beyond the seas to the shores of Madagascar 
and the forests of New France, who seemed to have 
taken upon himself the task of relieving all human 
miseries, that extraordinary man who has forced our 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY AVIT7I AMERICANS. 178 

age to believe in virtue ; let us consider only per- 
manent institutions and the general and lasting bless- 
ings of religion. 

Those solitary asylums of innocence and ])eijiance5 
which people will learn more and more to respect, those 
houses of refuge for misfortune, those magnificent pal- 
aces for poverty, who has raised them bat religion? 
Victorious for a while philosophism has leveled them 
to the ground. Human reason has spared nothing of 
what faith had created in behalf of humanity. How 
profusely multiplied were those useful and so eminent- 
ly social institutions ! Their number, almost infinite, 
equalled the number of our miseries. Here the daughter 
of St. Vincent of Paul waited on the infirm old man, 
dressing his disgusting sores and talking of heaven ; or 
by a supernatural feeling, becoming a mother and still 
a virgin, she warmed the foundling in her bosom ; 
moreover, the liospital sister, nursed and consoled the 
sick helpless poor, and sacrificing herself, spared not by 
day or night, the most tender cares j there the religious 
of St. Bernard, dwelling at the summit of the Alps, 
shortened his own life, to save from death the traveller 
lost in the snow. Elsewhere you might see the brother 
of holy death by the side of a death-bed, solacing the 
last moments of a dying man ; or the churchyard brother 
burying his last remains. By the side of the brave 
knights, those praying soldiers, who almost alone protect- 
ed Europe for a long tin\e, from Mohammedan invasion 
and barbarism, by their side you might see the brother 
of mercy surrounded as a conqueror with the captives, 
15* 



174 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

whom he had, not enslaved^ but freed from slavery, by 
exposing himself to a thousand dangers and untold hard- 
ships. Priests and religious of all orders, sundering the 
dearest ties by a superhuman virtue, were seen (as they 
are now seen) journeying to remote lands and joyfully 
suffering martyrdom, with no other hope or desire than 
to reclaim from ignorance, crime and misery, men en- 
tirely unknown to them. After fecundating with the 
sweat of his brow our barren hills and deserts, the 
laborious Benedictine, retired in his cell, cultivated the 
field, not less barren, of our ancient history and legis- 
lation. Education, preaching, missions, all kinds of 
nsefal works, were the part of the Jesuit. His zeal 
embraced all and carried all to completion. The hum" 
ble Capuchin would make his way from parish to par- 
ish, to help the weary pastor in the discharge of his 
holy functions, or shutting himself up in dark dungeons 
with the victims of human justice, vrould speak to 
them words of hope and peace. A minister of hope, 
he followed the criminal to the gallows, sharing his 
agony, animating his courage, fortifying his heart against 
the terrors of death and the stings of remorse, and he 
rested not until he had deposited the victim of inexor 
able human justice to the feet of the tribunal of the 
God of mercy. From that sorrowful scene let us pass 
to a more lovely and consoling sight. Behold the 
brother of christian doctrine teaching to children the 
elements of letters, arts and sciences, and the more 
precious doctrines of duties, speaking of God with 
unction and preparing youth for happiness, by training 



CATHOLIC IMISSIONAKY AV'ITII AMERICANS. 175 

them to virtue. Let it not be forgotten. Religion is the 
only true education of people. Without religion man 
knows nothing of what society and he himself have the 
greatest interest that he should know. He remaiqs 
ignorant of the duties and of the end of man, and in 
Academies, Gymnasium and Universities he becomes 
paralyzed with a brutal indifference to duties, which is 
worse than the state of savages. Religion civilizes a 
people. She feeds the poor with truth not less than 
with bread, she enlightens and raises his intellect, and 
the least advanced child at her school is more of a 
philosopher than boasting wise men who have no other 
guide than reason, and can confound by the simple an- 
swers of his catechism and by the sublimity of his doc- 
trine, the proudest reason. It w^as a plan Vv^orthy of 
materialists to substitute evolutions to instructions, to 
deprive youth of the highest and most important lessons, 
and to call that an improvement on the old system of 
education. 

I would never end, if I attempted to relate, even 
summarily, all the services wdiich the catholic clergy 
has rendered to civil society. It was certainly a grand 
idea to place by the side of the ministers of laws and 
justice, ministers of moral and charity and to make a 
public officer of the man of mercy. Enter into private 
dwellings, interrogate the heads of funilies and they 
v/ill tel] you how much they owe to that admirable in- 
stitution. How many enmities ended ! how many cou- 
ples, relatives and fellow citizens, reconciled! how many 
victims of vicious habits reclaimed ; how many wrongs 



176 convp:ksatioxs of a 

redressed, iniquities prevented, pains alleviated and se- 
cret miseries relieved ! Do you know what a priest is 
in reality, ye who hate him or revile him ? A priest is 
by office, the friend and the living providence of all 
who are afflicted, the consoling angel of the sorrowful, 
the defender of the poor, the prop and protector of the 
widow, the father of the orphan, and the repairer of all 
the evils and disorders which are caused by your passions 
and wicked doctrines. His whole life is but a long and 
heroical sacrifice to the happiness of his fellow-beings. 
Is there one among you, who would consent to ex- 
change all domestic enjoyments, all pleasures and 
worldly riches, which other men so ardently covet, 
for obscure labors, painful duties, heartrending and of- 
ten loathsome functions, with no reward in this world, 
for so many sacrifices, except sneers, ingratitude and 
insults '? You are fast asleep, and already has the man 
of charity begun, before sunrise, his Avorks of benevo- 
lence. He has helped the poor, visited the sick, dried 
up the tears of misfortune, or brought tears of penance 
from the eyes of a repenting sinner, instructed theigno 
rant, fortified the weak, and confirmed in virtue, souls 
agitated by the storms of passions. After a day filled 
up with deeds of mercy the evening comes but not rest. 
When pleasure calls you to theatres and festivals, a 
messenger arrives in haste to call the minister of God. 
A christian is dying, and perhaps dying from a conta- 
gious disease. It matters not. The good shepherd 
shall not let one of his flock die without consolations) 
without aAvaking his faith, hope and charity, without 



CATHOLIC 31ISSI0NAKY WITH A3H:1UCANS. 177 

2)raying at his side, the God who died for him and Mdio 
gives him, in his last moments a pledge of immortality 
in the sacrament of his love. Such is the catholic j^riest, 
not such as your hatred, pointing to a few scandalous 
exceptions, odiously re2)resents him, but such as he is in 
reality in your midst and every where. Yes, religion is 
to-day, what it has always been. There are fewer holy 
christians, but christians are the same. The purest vir 
tues, worthy of the first ages of the church, still do 
honor to Christianity. I need no other proof of it 
than the pious associations and useful establishments 
which a holy and enlightened zeal creates every day- 
How many men and women of all conditions, nay how 
many young men, doing good in secret, according to 
the lesson of the gospel, spend in visiting and helping 
the poor the time which you waste in frivolous amuse- 
ments, or w^hich you perhaps pass away in insulting the 
iioly religion which inspires that admirable devoted- 
ness ! I am aware that you do not know^ them, but 
they are known in hospitals, in prisons, in obscure 
liovels where their name is blessed. The charitable 
lady is well acquainted with the path that leads to the 
dwelling house of a poor family, and if you do not meet 
her the reason of it is best known to yourself But I 
will explain that reason, for it is of importance to have 
it understood. It is because your cold reasonings and 
your apathetic philanthropy tend to the entire destruc- 
tion of the last remnant of humanity. When Christian- 
ity is on a decline in a community, very soon its people, 
unfriendly to misfortune, conspire against all who are 



178 CONVKRSATIONS OF A 

ill distress. Thousands of pretexts are invented to 
avoid charity. To give alms to mendicants, is to 
favor idleness and vagrancy. Is a man hungry ? Is 
he naked ? Let him work. But he is an old man. At 
all ages, there are means to earn a living ; but it is a 
child. Take care not to raise him in idleness ; vicious 
habits cannot be counteracted too soon ; but it is a 
mother of a numerous family ; she says so, perhaps it is 
a lie. Before they donate the muniScsnt sum of a cent 
they must take informations, and have no time to do it 
Another is in search of employment, he is willing, nay 
anxious to work, but cannot find an employer. Per- 
haps he has not made proper inquiries, his application is 
noted down, but nothing is given for fear of bad ex- 
ample. As a general rule, whosoever asks must be mis- 
trusted. To hear such folks is to promote disorder, 
countenance laziness and encourage hunger. Without 
resorting to the expedient of Galerius, who ordered all 
the poor of his empire to be gathered in old ships, and 
sunk into the deep, a smiling philosophy attains nearly 
the same end with its scientific systems and philanthro- 
pic institutions. It calls to its aid physical sciences to 
obtain by chemical analysis the secret of some food so 
cheap that avarice can offer it without loss to the hun- 
gry. It calculates with accuracy the exact degree of 
privations that a man can endure, and has discovered at 
last, how to keep a skeleton alive with the least quanti- 
ty of food, so much does it dread the luxury of com- 
miseration ! Happy, yes happy the poc#", if they had 
only to groan under that hypocritical sham of relief, but 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAUY WITH AMERICANS 179 

a more cruel treatment is their doom. In order to free 
the eye of the rich from the annoying sight of poverty 
and their ears from hearing its groans, the poor are 
cast out of society and shut up between thick walls. 
After losing all earthly goods, they are deprived of 
liberty, and treated as criminals because they are pau- 
pei's ; and some are not ashamed to praise that horrible 
inhumanity as a master piece of administration ! Oh ! 
if you are unmerciful, at least be not barbarous. Open 
the doors of your philanthropic prisons. What do you 
fear ? Their inmates will not ask so much as the crumbs 
that fall from your tables, to prolong their wretched ex- 
istence. They only ask from you to die near the place 
of their birth, and to see once more the fields which 
they have tilled for you and which they can till no long- 
er ; what they ask is what nature has not refused and 
which you do not refuse yourself to superannuated ani- 
mals. Learn it from your grand Master. ^^^The ijoor 
you have alwaijs with you.'^ (Matth. xxvi, 2.) Do what 
you will, the poor you have always with you, to prevent 
you from hardening your hearts, to disturb the fatal re- 
pose of opulence, to awaken the feelings of commisera- 
tion and pity ; you have always the poor, that virtue 
may never cease ; you liave always the poor to repre- 
sent the human race, so poor, so miserable that a 
thought of J3ride in a child of Adam is an enigma etern- 
ally inexplicable to reason. You have always the poor 
but you have also and always will have a religion to 
console them. I have recalled a part of its blessings. 
They are great and manifest to the world. How is it 



180 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

that a religion so favorable to mankind can have men 
for enemies ; that so much love does not subdue hatred ! 
Alas, the cause of that hatred, is her beauty, and the 
jDcrfection of the gospel. Passions are frightened at 
the sight of arduous duties, and they deny that she has 
done good, because she commands the doing of good. 

There is not a sophism more common than to make 
Christianity answerable for all the crimes that are per- 
petrated by christians. There have been religious wars, 
therefore Christianity commands the spilling of blood. 
There have been thefts and murders ; therefore Chris- 
tianity does not prevent stealing or murdering ; there 
are bad priests, therefore Christianity is a cloak to hide 
wickedness. Now^, be in earnest, is morality a phan- 
tom and a source of calamities ? If you say that it is, I 
understand that you accuse religion; but if you say 
that it is not, then answer your own objections or I will 
retort them victoriously against morality. It is surely 
no great proof of a lofty mind to repeat obsolete decla- 
mations Avhich only deserve our disdain and contempt. 
See how" Montesquieu crushes the sophist Bayle : '' To 
" say that religion is not a repressing motive because it 
" does not always repress, ig the same as to say that 
'' laws are not a repressing motive. It is not sound 
" reasoning to gather in a large book a long list of the 
-" evils which religion has caused, unless one enume- 
^' rates also the good which she has done. If I related 
" all the evils which civil laws, monarchies and repub- 
^' lies have produced in the world, I w^ould say frighfc- 
^'ful things." (Esprit des Lois, 1. xxiv, eh. 11.) 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 181 

What is not abused by men ? They abuse the food 
which preserves their hfe, the strength which we have 
received for exertion and labor, the gift of speech, 
thought itself, sciences, liberty and life. They abuse 
God himself. Shall it be said that God and all things 
are pernicious, and that nothing that exists, is good? 
The wars, massacres and nefarious deeds, of which reli- 
gion lias been the pretext, are so little her own crimes, 
that to prevent the effect, it would have been sufficient 
to increase the enei'gy of the pretended cause. A few 
more degrees of faith would have secured the triumph 
of virtue and religion. What is a thief, a murderer, a 
miser, a bad priest ? It is a man who has no faith, or 
a weak faith since he succumbs to a passion that faith 
Avould have controlled. He is a rebel who is condemn- 
ed to death by religion, if he does not repent. He is 
an unbeliever in practice, if not in theory, a logical 
atheist or the most illogical of christians. There is not 
therefore a single crime that is not chargeable to unbe- 
lief. It is unbelief that produces them all, even those 
that are imputed to Christianity. It is unbelief that 
has brought forth the St. Bartholomew, and that held 
the knife of Ravaillac. As soon, therefore, as preju- 
dices and sophisms are laid aside, there remains nothing 
on the account of religion but countless blessings. She 
alone maintains order in society by giving a reason of 
power and duties, by perfecting laws, by purifying 
morals and by uniting all the members of the social 
body by the ties of brotherly love. 
Article 5. Ol)jections of deists. 
16 



182 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

A whole month had passed away and M. M., A., B. 
and C. had not made their appearance. They had prob- 
ably taken time to read the above pages and to prepare 
their objections. They came at last, and after the usual 
forms of politeness, I began the conversation. 

Missionary. — Gentlemen, are you convinced that the 
christian religion has been very beneficial to society ? 

Deist C. — Mr. De la Mennais is a good lawyer.* He 
has pleaded his cause remarkably well. It strikes me, 
however, that he gives credit to Christianity for im- 
provements which can be ascribed to other causes. 
Reason by developmg itself, the progress of sciences, 
and mutual intercourse between nations, have no doubt 
contributed more than the christian religion, to the 
civilization of the world. What is good in the chris- 
tian religion is precisely w^hat reason suggests and 
avows. 

Missionary. — I liave already stated, and it is a fact 
known by experience, that christian nations alone have 
progressed and become civilized. The Chinese are this 
day what they were two thousand years ago. The 
Mahommedans of our days are not liTore enlightened 
than their ancestors, nor are the Indians of America or 
the Negroes of Africa advancing one step. Is their 
reason asleep ? If reason has been developed, if sci- 
ences have progressed, if nations fraternize it is the 
work and the glory of the christian religion. I com- 
pare deists to the detractors of Columbus. After the 
discovery of America, they insinuated that it was not 
such a wonderful achievement as was represented. You 



C.VTJIOLIO MISSIOXAiri WITH AMERICANS. 183 

know the answer of Columbus. In the same manner 
after Christianity has enlightened reason and iiiarl^ed 
out tlie straight road to arrive at truth, Deists, who 
are benefited by the discovery, unjustly claim as the 
work of reason what is exclusively the work of religion. 

Deist C. — It cannot be denied that there are beauti- 
ful things in the christian religion, but it cannot stand 
the test of reason. Her mysteries and dogmas are in- 
credible ; her history of the creation of man and of the 
world in general is contradicted by geology and other 
sciences ; the fall of man, and the unity of language 
and of the human race are irrational ; the ^livisions 
among christians are so radical and so inveterate that 
they will never cease, unless there comes a new revela- 
tion from heaven ; the works of benevolence vv^iich are 
her glory are counterbalanced by atrocious wars and 
cruel persecutions. The most numerous part of the 
christian body to which you belong, is generally repre- 
sented by historians as keeping their people in igno- 
rance to enslave them and arrive at universal domina- 
tion. The very book, which you call the word of God, 
is so replete with falsehoods and contradictions that I 
cannot imagine how sensible men can receive it as in- 
spired by God. By the side of i^seful maxims we find 
maxims leading to fanaticism and melancholy, to rebel- 
lion and abject slaver}-. All this and much more than 
this is as clear as daylight. 

Missionary. — I have read all your objections and a 
great many others in our treaties of divinity, for it is 
our practice to give without deception, the answer of 



184 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

our opponents to our proofs and to quote their very 
words. If you ever read our books, you will find in 
them neither lies, nor calumnies, nor forgeries, nor mis- 
representations. Would to God that our adversaries 
who call us bigoted, prejudiced and ignorant would fol- 
low our example and be themselves honest and sincere ! 
But we cannot expect figs from thorns. I now come to 
your objection, for the sake of precision and order, al- 
low me to take each point separately, you began with 
mysteries. Mysteries being truths above our reason, 
which God has revealed, and our reason being not infi- 
nite, we have no cause or right to protest against them. 

Deist (7, — Mysteries, sir, are not only incomprehensi- 
ble dogmas, they are contradictions^ absurdities^ non- 
sense, One cannot be three, and three cannot be one. If 
the Son of God, is substantially the same with the father 
and the Holy Ghost, redemption resolves itself into 
self atoning for self. Mysteries convey no idea to our 
mind: to teach a mystery is like speaking an unknown 
tongue, like speaking Greek or Hebrew to a child. If 
there be such thing as a revelation it ought to enlight- 
en our reason, instead of perplexing it more and more 
by incomprehensible enigmas. Yv^ill I believe that the 
order of nature has been interfered with, by miracles, 
merely to confuse our natural ideas of things with use- 
less and irrational tenets and to introduce a blind faith, 
instead of evidence, I stand by the principle that rea- 
son is a gift of God, and that what contradicts reason 
is not from God. These are my views oii mysteries. 

Missionary. — If your mind is free from mysteries you 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. . 185 

form a glorious exception to tbe rest of mortals. As 
there is an alternation of sunsliine and darkness in the 
l^hysical world and a limit to om* vision, so tliere is 
light and shadow in the sphere of triitli and a limit to 
our reason. We are all sm-rounded with mysteries. 
Atheists, Materialists, Deists, Skeptics not less thaa 
christians have their mysteries. Hear Avhat Addison 
says of atheists : '^ I would fain ask one of those bigot- 
'' cd infidels, supposing all the great point of Atheism, 
'' as the casual or external formation of the world, the 
'' materiality of a thinking substance, the mortality of 
" the soul, the fortuitous organization of the body, 
''the motion or gravitation of matter, with the like 
" particulars, were laid together and formed into a kind 
" of creed, according to the opinions of the most cele- 
" brated atheists : I say, supposing that such a creed 
'• as this were formed and imposed upon any one ]}eo- 
" pie in the world, whether it would not require an 
" infinitely greater measure of faith, than any set of 
'^ articles which they so violently oppose. Let me there- 
'' fore advise this generation of wranglers, for their own 
'^ and for the public good, to act at least, so consistently 
'^ with themselves as not to burn with zeal for irreligion 
" and with bigotry for nonsense." (Spectator, N. 185.) 
Every thing is a mystery to a skeptic, for lie doubts 
every thing and believes nothing, not even his own ex- 
istence. Deists are not without mysteries. Is not the 
creation of the Avorld, out of iiothing, a mystery ? Ls 
not man himself a mystery? Is not God a mystery? 
One notorious deist has written : " I afKrm them (the 
16* 



186 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

'' attributes of God) without understanding them, and 
'' after all it is affirming nothing. * * '^' * The more 
'^ I endeavor to contemplate the infinite Being, the less 
" I conceive it, but the less I conceive it the more I 
" adore it." (Emil. t. iii.) 

In affirming nothing, one thing remains affirmed, 
viz : that God is a mystery ! When you advance that 
mysteries are contradictions, absurdities, nonsense, you 
forget that thousands and thousands of noble intellects 
have believed and revered those mysteries. In order to 
assail them, you are obliged to distort and falsify our 
doctrines ; for you are aware that we never maintained 
that three persons in God are one person. There are 
three persons in God, distinct, yet equal, and but one 
God. The trinity, the incarnation of the Son of God, 
the redemption and all mysteries are therefore above 
our reason, but not against it or contrary to it. There is 
no contradiction whatever. Nor do we require any man 
to give up his reason, but we require the ignorant and 
the proud to give up their pride and acknowledge 
their ignorance. A blind man, born blind, cannot see 
the rain-bow. nor the shades of colors, but should 
he, notw^ithstanding the testimony of mankind, deny the 
existence of colors and of the rain-bow, his blindness 
would not excuse his oddity. Now, we have more 
than the testimony of men, we have tlie testimony of 
God of the existence of truths whicli are obscure and 
incomprehensible in our present state of existence. '^ It 
pleased God," says St. Paul, '' by the foolishness of 
preaching, to save them that believe." (1 Cor. i, 21.) The 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH A^IEUICANS. 187 

wisdom of the world is mere folly, and what worldly 
people call foolishness and nonsense is true wisdom. 
Mysteries, far from being dry, abstruse, idle and un- 
profitable words are the never failing spring of truth, 
gratitude and love ; far from being unmeaning words, 
an unknown tongue or vain riddles to perplex our 
reason, they are the foundation of faith and piety. The 
roots of a tree, the foundation of a house are hidden in 
the ground, invisible to the eye, but a tree cannot stand 
without roots, nor a house without a foundation, and 
the deeper are the roots, the firmer is the tree. Do 
what you please, you cannot get rid of mysteries. Rea- 
son, by rejecting our christian mysteries, only plunges 
itself into still greater darkness, to swallow absurdities. 
Deist C. — If I must admit mysteries, at least you 
will not require that I believe falsehoods. Moses tells 
us that the world was created in six days, and the 
Bible makes it only some thousand years old. With- 
out being a Geologist and an Astronomer, I have read 
enough to be convinced that the narration of Moses does 
not harmonize with natural sciences. The discovery of 
ancient fossils, of unknown animals, the strata of the 
earth, the chronology of Egyptians, Chaldeans, Indians 
and Chinese, the ancient Zodiacs discovered in Egypt^ 
all prove the gi'cat antiquity of the world. I would not 
find fixult with Moses for adopting the usual forms of 
language, as when he said : '^That the sun stood still,'? 
but there is no excuse for erroneous statements and 
historical blunders. The conclusion is obvious. The 
whole of the narration of Moses is a fable. 



188 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

Missionary.- — You must admit that the narration of 
Moses is grand in its simplicity, and infinitely more rea- 
sonable than the absurd cosmogonies of pagan philoso- 
phers. You must admit also, that all nations acknowl- 
edge a beginning. Neither Geology, nor Astronomy, 
nor Chronology refutes the narration of Moses. All the 
productions of infidel scholars and antiquarians cannot 
weaken the authority of the sacred historian. In the 
first place, Moses, in relating the momentous events of 
the creation and of the first ages of the world, had 
in his favor, divine inspiration, the aimals and tradi- 
tions of his family. Four persons, viz : Levi, Isaac, 
Sem and Mathusala, fill the whole space between the 
father of Moses and Adam. Amram his father had 
lived many years with Levi ; Levi had lived 33 years 
with Isaac ; Isaac had lived 50 years with Sem ; and 
Sem had lived 90 years Avith Mathusala who had lived 
263 years with Adam. Those patriarchs had plenty of 
time to com^erse together and learn the history of the 
world and of their own family. In the second place, 
there is nothing in the first chapter of Genesis to pre- 
vent geologists from building systems^upon systems 
to sustain their theories or conjectures. From the be- 
ginning mentioned by Moses to the first morning you 
may count millions of years, or you may translate by 
epoch, the word which has been translated by day ; or 
you may admit one or two or three creations anterior 
to the one described by Moses. 

Deist C. — But on what ground can you admit more 
than one creation 1 



CATHOLIC 3IISS10NAKY WITH AMEHICANS. 189 

Missionary. — I do it to give you tiiiie for the Afasto- 
doms, for the formation of mountains, for the arrange- 
ment of tlie strata of the earth and for all future dis- 
coveries of geologists. It is certain that God created 
angels before he created man. That creation not being 
related by Moses, we are at liberty to suppose more than 
one creation. It is my right to meet opinions with 
opinions, but plain facts are not to be met with opinions. 
After reading carefully the objections of rationalists 
based on old zodiacs and astronomical observations, I 
find that our opponents generally suppose, first, ^that all 
astronomical knowledge had been swept away by the 
deluge ; secondly, that it took thousands of years to dis- 
cover the fimous period of 600 years at the end of 
which the position of the heavenly bodies is the same 
as at its beginning ; thirdly, that the zodiacs found in 
Egypt were made in Egypt. Christian astronomers 
naturally suppose on the contrary, first, that the child- 
ren of jSToali did not lose their memory during the del- 
uge ; secondly, that twenty years of observations, which 
are easily made under the cloudless sky of Chaldea, 
would shov/ a deviation of one-thirtieth of a day ; forty 
years — a deviation of two thirtieths ; sixty years — a 
deviation of three thirtieths of a day, and so on, so that 
after thirty times twenty years, or GOO years we have 
thirty thirtieths, or a Avhole day, and phenomona recur 
as at the beginning of the period. They suppose thirdly 
and give pretty fair proofs, that the Egyptian zodiacs of 
Denderach and Henne have been imported from Chaldea. 
With different premises, their conclusions also differ 



190 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

from those of the dei.sls, and the Bible stands vindi- 
cated. 

The boasted antiquity ot Egyptians. Indians and other 
asiatic nations does not rest on a better foundation than 
the system of geologists and the vain theories of anti- 
christian savans. All modern writers, now agree, says 
Rollin, that the thirty dynasties of Manetho are not suc- 
cessive, but that many of those kings reigned at the same 
time, and in different countries of Egypt. The twenty 
thousand years of their Gods and demi-Gods and heroes, 
are thus easily reduced to the standard chronology of 
Moses. The chronology of Chaldeans may be brought to 
the same standard by reducing the Chaldean Sari, which 
Berosus makes 3,600 yaers, to 3600 days, Q-) or ten 
years of 360 days each, (the year of Chaldeans and ac- 
cording to some authors the antidiluvian year.) I need 
not disprove the pretended antiquity of Indians and 
Chinese, for the better we know the sacred books of 
Indians, the more febulous and absurd do they appear, 
and it is now certain that nothing is reliable of all the 
Chinese annals previous to the year 800 before Christ. 
To base reasonings on such books is unfair. Read them 
through, and you vrill perhaps acknowledge if not the 
divinity, at least the superiority of the bible. 

Deist C. — I have not read any of them and do not 
care for them. What I object to is the narration of 
Moses. Take the deluge. I cannot believe its reality. 
Supposing that the ark of Noah was a larger vessel than 

(1.) As Doanua the Gth Chaldean King of Berosus is said by Africanus 
to have reigned 99 years, and by Abydenus and Apollodoriis, ten sari, that 
hypothesis is not improbable. (Dnclot, Bible vengee. t. i. p. lSG^ 



CATHOLIC ]^IISSIONARY AVITII A3IEKICANS. 191 

the Great Eastern, how could there have been room for 
all kinds of quadrupeds, birds and reptiles, with a sup- 
ply of provisions for a Avliole year ? How could Noah 
build that vessel and gather every kind of animals from 
the four corners of the world? It must be some great 
inundation tliat has given rise to that incredible story 
of a universal deluge. 

Missionary. — I have read the calculations of Le Pelie- 
tier, a merchant of Rouen, who demonstrates that the 
ark of Xoah could hold all the animals to be saved in 
one story, and all the provisions requisite for their sup- 
port in another, with plenty of room for Noah and his 
family. The ark being thirty cubits high, (more than 
fiftyfeet) instead of two stories, you may divide it into 
three, besides the space between the first floor and the 
keel. The dissertations of Buteus (De Area Noe) and 
of Wilkins, protestant bishop of Chester, establish the 
same fact. The largest animals live in water. As to 
other animals Le Pelletier observes that of the one hun~ 
dred and thirty kinds of quadrupeds, there are only six 
larger than the horse ; of the one hundred and thirty 
kinds of birds, there are not many larger than the 
swan ; of the thirty kinds of reptiles, it is unknown 
how many could live in water. You ask ; how could 
Noah build the ark? I answer: as all large vessels 
are built. How could he gather all kinds of animals ? 
That would hardly puzzle a Barnum ; but it was 
easier for Noah than for Barnum, for it is the opin- 
ion of learned men that before the deluge, there was a 
continual spring upon earth, and that animals could 



192 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

live in every part of tlie world ; but supposing that a 
miraculous interposition of providence was needed, you 
will not deny that nothing is hard or impossible to God. 
The deluge is a fact attested by the study of nature and 
by the almost universal tradition of people, so that un- 
belief on that point is inexcusable. 

Deist C. — There is a greater difficulty involved in the 
history of the creation. When I reflect upon the origin 
of sin, and think that God hates sin and permitted it ; 
that God foresaw the transgression of man and that 
man is said to have disobeyed voluntarily ; that God is 
infinite, and that a creature so finite and so insignificant 
that man can offend him ; that the first offence of man, 
wath so many extenuating circumstances, has been vis- 
ited with such dreadful punishments, I am completely 
in the dark : but the foil of man and the transmission of 
sin which you call " original sin " is the climax of in- 
justice and inconsistency ! Who can reconcile the good- 
ness and the justice of God with the transmission of 
sin from the guilty to the guiltless '? How could unborn 
children be accomplices of Adam and Eve 1 In what 
sense can harmless and helpless little babes be guilty of 
sin and be pardoned or regenerated by baptism without 
any knowledge of the whole transaction ? All that is 
not only above reason but against reason. 

MissionarTj . — The origin and transmission of sin, are 
great mysteries, but infidels who deny sin and the trans- 
mission of sin, have to believe something infinitely more 
incomprehensible than the catholic dogmas. They have 
to believe that there is no difterenee between 0*00 d and 



CATilOLTC MISSIONAKY AVITII AMEKICANS. 193 

evil, that we are not free and responsible agents, that 
God himself is the author of sin, a blasphemy that leads 
to atheism. By rejecting the biblical solution of the 
origin and transmission of sin, man is a more incompre- 
hensible mystery than original sin itself, for a man is a 
compound of good and evil. Reason alone could show 
that such cannot have been his first state. If man is 
born guiltless and pure, I ask in my turn, why so 
much ignorance in his soul ? so much weakness in his 
body, so many infirmities and so many tears ! Why 
famines, pestilence and wars which equally afflict the 
old and young ? If we have not shared the guilt of Adam, 
why do we share his penalty and his miseries ? How 
is it that we cannot help loving what is good and true 
jand that we are bent towards what is false and evil ? 
How is it that man is just, holy, generous, magnani- 
mous ; and that man is also unjust, unholy, cruel, hypo- 
critical and selfish ? Revelation alone explains the enig- 
ma. The first man is Adam as God has created him, the 
image of God endowed with supernatural justice ; the 
second man is Adam vitiated by sin, whose corruption is 
transmitted with life from generation to generation. 
^'The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit 
against the flesh, for these are contrary one to another 
so that you do not the things that you would.'' (Gal, 
V. 17.) 

Being the image of God, our soul is intellect and 

love. A virtuous man thirsts after knowledge and 

truth. He not only delights in what is good, useful, 

heroical, but lie is ready to sacrifice himself for his 

17 



194 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

fellow-men and for the glory of God. Let conscience 
speak, let charity prompt his heart, he does not hesitate, 
he does not calculate. He goes amongst savages, 
to enlighten them with the light of the gospel ; he de- 
scends into dungeons with culprits and murderers to con- 
sole and convert them ; he gives, if needed, his blood 
and his life and suffers martyrdom to prepare by a mag- 
nanimous testimony the triumph of truth ; he despises 
what is terrestrial and transitory ; he avoids the frivolous 
and sensual j^leasures of the world, holds his passions in 
check and controls his very thoughts ; his only joy is 
to please God and to do good, his only sorrow, to see 
God offended, and his brethern afflicted. In him the 
spirit has triumphed over the flesh. But alas ! the 
ilesh lusteth against the spirit and too often triumphs 
over it. By the flesh man is bent towards the earth. 
He craves physical enjoyments, truth becomes hate- 
ful to him, he attacks it in himself, in his mind, in his 
heart, in his conscience ; he attacks it in others. His 
intellect is encompassed by darkness, but he finds no 
rest because truth is eternal and knocks again and again, 
although in vain, at the door of his heart. Such is man 
as the scriptures represent him, as we daily see liim ; a 
fallen creature designed by God, to be an angel wdth a 
body ; but alas ! depraved by sin, mid too often a brute 
with a spiritual soul. 

The traditions of all ancient people wonderfully coin- 
cide witli the dogma of the fall of man. Cicero testi- 
fies thot philosophers imagined that our soul had sinned 
in a previous life, before it v^- as incarcerated into a body. 



CATHOLIC" MISSIONAIIV WITH AMKKICANS. 195 

Voltaire himself confesses that the fall of man is at the 
bottom of all ancient theologies. (Philos. de Thist. ch- 
xvii.) The Ate of Homer, the Ophiogenes of Phere- 
cicles, the Typhon of Egyptians, the golden age of the 
poets, liave had their origin in the ancient traditions of 
the world on the foil of man. But how can infants be 
guilty ? Because Adam was individual and species, 
representing a man and the human family. By his fall 
he was deprived of that original justice and grace, and 
of all the privileges with which he was endowed, and, 
being despoiled of all, he remained entirely destitute. 
There is a solidarity between him and his last descend- 
ants. We are born ignorant of one ignorant, weak of 
one weak, infirm of one infirm, mortal of one mortal, 
rebellious of one rebellious. Our reason is not shocked 
at the solidarity of ftimilies and of States. When par- 
ents lose their property, the children lose it with them ; 
when States contract a public debt, unborn citizens are 
not exempt from responsibility. We are ashamed of 
the faults of our parents and ancestors, and glory in 
their glory. All that is a transmission of misfortunes 
and advantages, a solidarity which ex2:)lains, although 
imperfectly, the catholic view of original sin. As mem- 
bers of the human flimily, without being the accom- 
plices of Adam, we share his sin, his penalty, and his 
misfortune. I do not deny, after all, that the sentence 
passed in the person of Adam, against all generations 
of men, past, j^resent and future, is a most incompre- 
hensible dogma, but when people insolently reproach 
God for our common condamnation in the person of our 



/? 



196 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

first parents, it argues bad faith, or shameful ignorance 
not to mention tliat if we have been condemned in the 
person of our representative, we are also saved by the 
merits of a sul)stitute, our Lord and Redeemer Jesus 
Christ. The law of mercy, which has worked our re" 
demption, through Jesus Christ, is the complement and 
explication of the law of justice, as St. Paul expresses 
it ; '' by the disobedience of one man, many were made 
sinners, so also by the obedience of one, many shall be 
made just," and also ; where sin abounded, grace hath 
abounded more. (Rom. v. 19, 20.) 

JDeist C. — The difference between the sin of Adam 
and the atonement of Christ is as big as a mountain. 
If one is lost by the fall of Adam, Ave are all lost, all 
doomed to hell, without exception, whilst the redemp- 
tion is only partial and conditional. The majority of 
mankind will never be benefited by it. There are whole 
nations who have never heard anything of the necessity 
of baptism. To be punished eternally for the sin of 
Adam and Eve, for the neglect of parents, and in mil- 
lions and millions of instances, for invincible ignorance 
is not the dictate of justice and equity. A number 
of progressive christians, Baptists, Unitarians and Uni- 
versalists, have already adopted the liberal views of ra- 
tionalists, and the day is not far distant, I liope, when 
men will be regenerated without baptism. 

Missionary. — I am at liberty to deny that any man 
will be doomed to hell, for the guilt of original sin. It 
is certain that the reward of heaven will be the exclusive 
reward of christians, but the ultimate destiny of unbap- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITil A:\rEiaCAXS. 197 

lized children, or of adults who observe the natural law, 
is a matter of opinion. God can, no doubt, without in- 
justice confer on his creatures, lesser or gi-eater blessings 
as he pleases. On tlie ground that unbaptized children 
shall possess a natural happiness, (and that ground is 
not destitute of reasons and authority,) your objections 
against the goodness and justice of God, because chil- 
dren remain unbaptized, either through neglect or in- 
vincible ignorance, is without foundation. God is just 
and good to all, and infinitely good to the elect. If 
you reflect that all christians, millions and millions of 
them, whether Latins or Greeks or protestants, w^ith the 
exception of a handful of Baptists, and a few semi-in- 
fidels, who deserve not the name of christians, all agree 
that baptism is a sacrament which forgives original sin, 
and makes us children of God and of his church, you 
will come to the conclusion that those whom you call 
prb^rressive clirislians are Dro^-ressino; indeed, but alas, 
their progress is downward ! 

Deist C. — I have more palpable objections to the 
narration of Moses. The unity of language, before 
the confusion of tongues and the unity of the human 
race, are two points which are at variance with unde- 
niable facts. Compare the noble Caucasian with the 
jet black African, the red man of America Avith the yel- 
low Mongolian or brow^n Australian. It is impossible 
to admit that they have descended from one stock. I 
cannot acknowledge as a brother the dwarfish Lap- 
lander or the filthy Hottentot. Besides our continent 
is an island. When Europeans discovered it, it w^as 
17* 



198 CONVKKSATIONS Oi- A 

thickly settled by a race of men unknown to the world,, 
some of whom were in a wild state and others on the 
road to civilization. Tliose people had not travelled 
ovei' lands raid sctis from the i)lains of Shinar, and can- 
not be the descendants of Adam and Eve. 

Missioncfy. — The diversity of languages is not a rea- 
son to disbelieve or even to doubt the antidiluvian 
unity of language. Would you assert that Germans 
and Spaniards are a diiFerent race because they speak 
different languages? Your remarks against the unity of 
race because of the variety of colors, is more plausible 
but equally groundless. I have heard it asserted that 
negroes are nothing more than orang-outangs, so much 
is our reason blinded by interest and prejudice. Vv^hen 
a Cuvier, a Buffon, a Blumenbach and a host of learned 
men attest tlie imity of the human race, and class as 
varieties or species the men avIio resemble each other 
by forms and colors, that testimony is not to be de- 
spised especially by men who prefer science to revela- 
tion. Some travelers have indeed asserted that they 
have found people whose anatomical formation differed 
from that of other men, but closer oliservations have 
proved that they were deceived, and that some intend- 
ed to deceive. It was the case with the Prussian 
envoy, Peter Kolbe, who having spent his time in 
drinking and smoking, gravely filled up his memoirs 
with fictitious accounts about the Hottentots. Each 
man differs, in many things, from his fellow-man. Be- 
cause some men are lymphatic and bilious, sanguine or 
nervous, because some men have red hair and beard 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKV WITH AMERICANS. 199 

and others black or auburn, it does not follow that they 
are not brethren and sometimes brothers. But why 
and how came those differences ? I answer with the 
writers on natural history, that the climate, food, 
modes of life, disease and other unknown accidental 
causes have jn-oduced them by degrees. The Albinos, 
who are white, coine from negro parents. The same 
Moors, who have invaded Western Africa and Spain, 
have become blacker in Africa and remained white or 
rather brownish in Spain. Let me add that God may, 
if he please, form new species of man, green or blue 
without interfering with the unity of our race. 

With regard to our continent of America, it is tlie 
opinion of a Russian Savant, (Mr, Krachenimicow, ) 
that Asia was formerly contiguous to North America. 
It is, at least, certain that the two countries are not far 
distant from each other, and that islands in summer and 
a bridge of ice in winter, facilitate the passage from one 
continent to the other. It is besides a pretty well set- 
tled feet that America was known in remote times. 
Wrecks of Chinese junks have been found on the coast 
of California, and in the Columbia river. Contrary winds 
and storms may also have thrown vessels, and even light 
skiffs, on the American coast. In 1731, a small boat, 
loaded with wine, arrived from Teneriff to St. Joseph 
de Oruno, with five men who looked as skeletons. 
(Hist, de rOrenoque par le pere Gumillo, t. ii, ch. 31.) It 
is not then impossible that people from Asia and Africa 
may have been thrown by stormy weather, on our shores. 
Whatever may have been the origin of our Indians, it 



200 CONVKKSATiONS OF A 

cannot be doubted that they have not a great antiquity. 
(The Peruvians only counted twelve kings up to the 
time of their conquest.) The number of Indians was 
at first greatly exaggerated, as their easy conquest alone 
would ])rove. Some of them were not without a 
knowledge of the deluge and of the confusion of ton- 
jxues. It is therefore evident that the red man cannot 
be repudiated by his pale brother ; Indians are descend- 
ants from Adam and Eve, and instead of sending armies 
to destroy them, religion and humanity plead in con- 
cert for tlieir improvement and their conversion to Chris- 
tianity. 

Deist C. — The books of Moses are not the only part 
of the bible which enlightened reason has criticized. 
The other books are so full of objectionable passages 
that a number of liberal christians are coming nearer 
and nearer to our opinion concerning the bible. Peo- 
ple will soon wonder that it has ever been received as 
the word of God. Out of thousands and thousands of 
contradictions and blunders, which learned men have 
pointed out, I will quote but one, which is evident to 
m\j man who can count ten. The gospel of St IMark 
says that our Saviour was crucified at the third houj^, 
and the gospel of St. John says at the sixth hour. Is 
not that a contradiction I It is no wonder that those 
who believe with a blind faith, refuse to apply tlie rules 
of criticism to the bible and to religious questions. 

Missionary. — I admit that many protestants, who are 
tossed to and fro, by every wind of doctrine, are fast 
losing their human belief in the inspiration of the 



CATHOLIC .MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 201 

Bible. It is the inevitable effect of their false princi- 
ple of private interpretation, but whilst the accession of 
rationalistic protestants swells the ranks of infidels, the 
conversion of conscientious men swells also the number 
of christians. It is in vain that the silly copyists of a 
Voltaire or a Strauss revile the Old and New Testa- 
ments, all the contradictions and follies which they wish 
to find in the sacred volume disappear when the origi- 
nal text is fairly quoted and translated, and when anci- 
ent languages and manners are understood. Bad faith 
in quotations and a superficial knowledge are the true 
causes of all sarcasms and blasphemies. The whole 
Bible has been so often and so fully vindicated against 
the attacks of infidelity, that unbelievers who despise 
it, deserve to be despised. Let us take the example 
which you have quoted. The change of a numerical 
letter for another is not impossible ; but there is no need 
to have recourse to an error of copyists to explain the 
alleged discrepancy; we have only to know that ancient 
people had two ways of dividing the day. Some divid- 
ed it into four parts or hours, and others into twelve 
parts or hours ; the third part according to the former 
began at noon, the sixth hour according to the latter 
corresponded to the same time. Tliere is, then, no con- 
tradiction at all. Rousseau, himself a deist, could not 
shut his eyes to the beauty of the gospel, and has writ- 
ten eloquent pages in its praise. In profane histories, 
remarks Massillon, man is every thing ; in the Bible 
God rules the world ; hence it is that the friends of God 
love the Bible, and that Avorldly people hate it. 



^02 C0NVKrvSATI0N.-5 OF A 

We adjourned our conversation to a fortnight. When 
they came again, Mr. C, continued his objections on 
other topics. 

Deist C. — I take it for granted that Moses was cor- 
rect, but I have a number of other objections, and be- 
gin with a conclusive argument, based on the divisions 
of christians. The christian body is composed of Catho- 
lics, Protestants and Greeks. I cannot be a catholic, I 
cannot be a protestant, I cannot be a Greek, I must 
therefore remain a deist. I cannot be a catholic. How 
could I. All protestants represent your church as the 
^^ Whore of Babylon,' the Pope as anti-christ, the 
catholics as idolaters, who worship) the Blessed Virgin 
Mary and the Saints, who burn the Bible and believe 
gross absm'dities. I have been taught that catholics are 
superstitious, ignorant, deceitful and intolerant. I do 
not now believe all these charges, but I believe, with 
protestants, that the catholic church has fallen into 
many errors and wicked practices. I cannot be a prot- 
estant, for I see the protestants divided and subdivided 
into hundreds of sects. They have in every town and 
villao'e half a dozen or more of meeting^ houses, where 
the gospel is preached and the Bible explained in a dif- 
ferent Avay. Protestants pay ministers to explain the 
Bible, and still they pretend to believe that the Bible is 
clear and so clear that every body can understand it. 
Their ministers desecrate the pulpit with political har- 
rangues, and their aim to create a sensation is rather than 
to promote piety. I cannot be a Greek for the Greeks are 
inconsistent, and their creed and practices are liable to 



CATHOLIC :\IISSIONAUY WITH AMERICANS. 20^ 

the same objections as tliose of catholics. It is plain that 
all christians are Avi'ong, and that the founder of Chris- 
tianity has uttered a false prophecy wlien he said : the 
Oates of Hell shall not pi^evail against the church. Be- 
lieving as I do that protestants are right, or nearly right, 
in their charges and recriminations against your church, 
and eastern churches ; believing also that protestants 
have not logic and truth on their side, I must be a deist, 
nothing more or less than a deist. 

Missionary. — Your conclusion is according to all the 
rules of reasoning, but although logical in form, it is 
false, because the premises are false. Dissensions and 
heresies are, alas ! a great cause of unbelief. The letters 
of Missionaries in Hindoston and other lands show that 
idolaters and Mohammedans take the same advantage 
as you do of the dissensions of christians. Hence our 
Saviour, who foresaw the dreadful effects of schisms, 
prayed at the last supper ; '' that they may all he one as 
thou father in me^ and I in thee;'' ''that they also may he 
one in us, that the ivorld may helieve that thou hast sent meT 
(John xvii, 21.) The falsehood of tlieir reasoning, 
and of yours, consists in the groundlessness of the as- 
sertion that the catholic church has become so corrupt 
as to cease to be the true church. The words of our 
Saviour are not only a prophecy, but a clear promise of 
divine assistance. When he sent his a])ostles he said : 
" I am with you, all days, even to the consummation of 
the world," (Matth. xxviii, 20.) Protestants who en- 
deavor to justify their schism by clamoring that the old 
church had fallen, thereby acknowledge that the old 



204 CONVEIJSATIONS OF A 

church (the cathoUc church) was the true church before 
it fell, for it is evident that the old church stood erect 
and sound before the pretended fall. If they believe 
the words of Jesus Christ and of the Bible, as they pre- 
tend to do, they are bound to confess that the true 
church cannot fall. It is built on a rock, and neither 
wind nor rain can shake it from its foundation. Their 
dream of a fallen church is therefore anti- scriptural and 
blasphemous. . As to you and other deists who doubt 
the words of Jesus Christ, we can easily prove, on other 
grounds, that our Saviour has not lied, but that the 
enemies of the old catholic church have lied, that they 
lie, preach lies, print lies, circulate lies, and shamefull}' 
calumniate the spouse of Christ. It is a lie that we 
worship the Blessed Virgin, or the saints, that we burn 
the Bible, that priests forgive sin for money, that we are 
intolerant, ignorant, superstitious, etc., etc. I refer you 
to our catechisms, to the excellent work of Dr. Milner, 
(the end of controversy) to the quarterly review of the 
learned Brownson, and to all our books of controversy. 
Protestants have paved the way for inMels. They have 
rebelled against the church, and calumniated that church 
by which we know the Redeemer. Infidels have im- 
proved on their sophisms and calumnies, and protested 
against Jesus Christ by Avhom we know God; but 
neither protestants nor infidels can change the plain 
words of our Lord, who, after having established his 
mission by miracles and prophecies, said to the apos- 
tles : "All power is given to me in heaven and in earth: 
Go, ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAIIY WITH AlVIERICANS. 205 

in the mime of tiie Father and of the Son, and of the 
Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things what- 
soever I have commanded you, and behold I am Vv^ith 
you, all days, even to the consummation of the world." 
The constitution, the rights, the privileges, tlie visibility, 
the indefectibility, the infallibility and the triumphs of 
the church, all is contained in these last verses of the 
gospel of St. Matthew, and in these momentous words 
of our Lord. 

Dtist C. — One of your principles, which I greatly ad- 
mire is to believe what has been believed every Avhere, 
by all and in all times. On that principle deists alone 
are in the right, for Greeks and protestants being in 
array against catholics (say one hunired and fifty mil- 
lions against two hundred millions) you will not pretend 
that you have a sufficient majority on your side to re- 
tain the name of catholics. 

Missionarij. — Our principle ought to be dear to every 
American, for it is the same principle on religious mat- 
ters which is advocated in politics, that the majority 
rules; (}) and that principle has a double av eight on 
religious matters, because it is not only the dictate of 
reason but the positive institution of our Lord. If you 
are true to that principle, it will lead you to Christi- 
anity and further on to catholicity. Catholics agree 
with Greeks and with protestants (wlio are not infidels) 
in adorinor Jesus Christ as true God and true man. The 



(1.) The majority of Bishops cannot teach error, and the majority of 
christians cannot believe errors. The words of our Lord : the gates of hell 
iBhall not prevail against the church, clearly imply aciivf^ infaUihility in 

teacherS; htkI pasisii'". infaUiliUty m the faithful. 

18 



206 CONVKKSATIONS OV A 

few lurking infidels, who assume tlie name of christians, 
are too small a minority to be counted. If you admire 
our principle, be consequent and a^ow yourself a clnis- 
tian. After confessing the divinity of Jesus Christ you 
will study his vrords and easily find out his church and 
his doctrines. 

£>eist C. — I cannot do it, sir, for your church is far from 
being what you claim her to be. Above all other de- 
nominations, she has been an enemy to liberty and free- 
dom, to knowledge and progress. My motto is : liberty 
and progress. I am for universal freedom, and univer- 
sal liberty ; liberty of conscience, civil liberty, liberty 
of the press, liberty of education, liberty of association, 
natural and political liberty as ample and perfect as 
compatible with the public good. Liberty and know- 
ledge walk hand in hand. Where ignorance prevails, 
there is superstition and despotism, but where knowl- 
edge is fostered and flourishes, there is liberty and pro- 
gress. As fogs and darkness are banished by the 
bright rays of the sun, so are superstition and arbitrary 
power expelled by the glorious beams of liberty. Never ! 
Never will I join a religion and a church which does 
not promote liberty and progress. 

Missionary, — Your objection, sir, reduced to simple 
terms, means that christians^ and catholics particularly, 
have neither knowledge nor freedom, and more than 
that, it means that they relish ignorance and slavery. 
You are full of the idea that infidels are fi^r ahead of 
christians in this respect. Allow me to say, that it is 
just the reverse. Infidelity leads to despotism and 



CATHOLIC :»nSSIONAKY WITH A3IERICANS. 207 

slavery, because it cannot give the reason of poAver and 
obedience. It leads to disobedience of God, and to 
hatred, and, when it is advantageous, to violating the laws 
of the land ; but true liberty being impossible without 
obedience to just laws, it follows that infidels are inca- 
pable of promoting liberty. Truth, says Jesus Christ, 
shall make you free. (John viii, 32.) Jesus Christ, 
and He alone, is the light of the world and its Saviour. 
Although his kingdom is spiritual, he has laid the only 
possible foundation of liberty, equality and fraternity, 
which have been moral and christian virtues long be 
fore they became political axioms. The Son of God 
has been made man and came to preach the gospel to 
the poor, and to raise all men, without distinction of 
persons, to the dignity of children of God. The church 
which he has founded to continue his great work, is, 
by its nature, the friend of liberty, of popular rights, 
and of progress. All that infidels now boast of, is not 
an effect of their reasonings, but the effect of the lessons 
and examples of our Divine Lord, and of the maxims 
propagated by his church. Civilization is the work 
and glory of the church as demonstrated by Balmes, 
Nicolas and so many other eminent writers. 

Deist C. — We differ as day and night. To avoid 
confusion I will examine article after article and begin 
with individual liberty, as opposed to slavery. It is 
an undeniable fact that your church has tolerated 
slavery every where, and that it has manifested very 
little sympathy for the black race, during our great 
struggle for the emancipation of slaves. 



208 CONVEKSATIONS OF A 



P 



Missionary. — What is undeniable on the subject of 
slavery, is that humanity owes thanks to the christian 
religion for the abolition of slavery. Before the advent 
of our Loixl, all philosophers misunderstood natural 
liberty. Aristoteles squarely maintains that a father 
cannot be unjust to his children nor a master to his 
slaves. At Lacedemon, slaves were not allowed, in any 
case, to claim the protection of laws. At Sparta, un- 
offending slaves were often murdered, merely to pre- 
vent their increase and to accustom youth to the art of 
war. The laws of pagan Rome w^ere still more bar- 
barous. At the coming of our Saviour, one half of the 
world was enslaved by the other half. Our Lord, it is 
true, did not as some fanatics, who claim to be his min- 
isters, urge the slaves to rebel against their masters, but 
he gave to the slave and to the master equal rights in 
his church, and redeemed them all by his blood, and 
as his religion gained ground, slavery disappeared, with- 
out civil wars and bloodshed. Voltaire, the greatest 
enemy of Jesus Christ and of the Popes, is himself 
compelled to say of Pope Alexander, III: " That Pon- 
tiff is entitled to the gratitude of all Europe," and why ? 
because that Pope proclaimed in the name of the third 
general council of Lateran, in the year 1179, that " all 
christians ought to be free from bondage." Indeed 
from that date may be determined the decline and 
gradual extinction of serfism, which is now at an end 
even in Russia. If pride, avarice and other jiassions 
still stifle in a few half christian countries the sentiments 
of nature and religion, the horrors of slavery, are, at 



CATHOLIC AMISSION AKY WITH AMEKICANS. 209 

least, mitigated by tlie laws of the cliurcii. After Pope 
Alexander, I must not omit the great St. John of 
Matha and his noble monks, Avhose whole lives were 
spent in toils and labors to ransom captives and slaves. 

With regard to the emancipation of Sonthern slaves, 
our brave catholic soldiers have shed their blood and 
won their share of laurels, as every where, but it mat- 
ters little, as the avowed object of our civil war was 
not, at first, the liberty of slaves. It is still a problem 
whether the aim of our highest politicians was the eman- 
cipation of the black race, or the promotion of then- 
own interest. Be that as it may, it is a gross error and 
a shameful calumny to assert that the christian religion 
is opposed to the liberty of slaves. 'There is neither 
'' Jew nor Greek, says St. Paul, thei'e is neither bond 
*' nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are 
" all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal. iii, 28.) 

Deist C. — I cannot gainsay your proofs on the sub- 
ject of slavery, but if there is any thing clear in history, 
it is that your church has persecuted. She has never 
countenanced and understood religious liberty. Her 
laws, her liturgy, her annals, all breath intolerance and 
a wicked spirit of persecution. It is of no use to dod^e 
the question by saying, that protestants have persecuted, 
even worse than catholics. Their wrongs do not lessen 
your wrong. Quakers, Moravians, and Baptists are a 
glorious exception ; but that such a small number of 
christians would form the only exception to the num- 
berless crowd, is the shame of Christianity. Yes, chris- 
tians have persecuted ; I can make it appear as clear as 
18- 



210 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

day light. The Anierican Encycloperlia of Religious 
Knowledge concludes its article on '* persecution," by 
these words which I have noted. (He took his notes 
which he read vrith great emphasis.) "Popery we see, 
''has had the greatest hand in this mischievous work. 
'' It has to answer also for the lives of millions of Jews, 
''- Mohammedans and Barbarians. When the Moors 
'' conquered Spain, in the eighth ceiitur}^, they allowed 
'' the christians the free exercise of their religion, but 
'' in the fifteentli centui-y, when the Moors were over- 
" come and Ferdinand subdued the Moriscoes, the de- 
" scendants of the above Moors, miny thousands were 
"forced to be baptized or burnt, massacred or banished 
"and their children sold for slaves, besides innumerable 
" Jews who shared the same cruelties, chiefly by means 
" of the infernal courts of the inquisition. A worse 
" slaughter, if possible, w^as made among the natives 
" of Spanish America, where fifteen millions are said to 
" to have been sacrificed to the genius of Popery, in 
" about forty years. It has been computed that fifty 
" millions of protestants, have, at difierent times, been 
" the victims of the persecutions of the papists and put 
" to death, for their religious opinions. Well, therefore 
" might tlie inspired penman say: etc." I do not mind 
wdiat the inspired penman says, but facts are facts. If 
you object to that authority, I can produce testimonies 
from your own historians, as Lingard, Waterworth and 
others, who acknowledge that religious intolerance be- 
came a part of the public law of Christendom. Eveiy 
Tbody knows that there have been crusades, w^ith indul- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS- 211 

gences, not only against Moliainmediins and Infidels, 
but against heretics and against Kings and Emperors. 
Finally came the abominable tribunal of the Inquisition 
with all its horrors. Who has not seen portraits of 
auto-da-fes and santo-henitos ? Well might Addison 
write : (lie took again his notes.) " These disputants 
^' convinced their ad veivaries with a sorites commonly 
^' called a pile of faggots. - * * ^' * In a word the 
'^ application of whips, racks, gibbets, galleys, dungeons, 
**' fires and faggots in a dispute, may be looked upon as 
^* a popish refinement upon the old heathen logic." 
(Spect. ]Sr. 239.) I have given you evidences which 
might fill a volume. Will you now ask me to be- 
come a christian, if Christianity is a Moloch that re- 
quires human victims? or to join a church that pun- 
ishes the errors of the mind with fire and sword ? 
When you argue with protestants you tell them, " you 
have done worse" or '*' you owe us more than we owe 
you, cancel your bond." That sort of reasoning is 
well enough as an ofi'set between catholics and protest- 
ants, but I am a deist, and I say if catholics have done 
wrong, and protestants have committed a greater wrong 
there is wrong on both sides, and I remain a deist. I 
have been very long, but you may retaliate in your an- 
swer. 

Missionary. — It is no wonder that you hate our church, 
if you believe that she breathes a spirit of cruelty and 
murder, and I do not wonder that you earnestly enter- 
tain that false opinion, as all infidel writers and most 
protestant controvertists seem to vie with each other in 



212 CON VERS ATiON.S OF A 

the veliemence and bitterness of the terms by which 
they endeavor to affix this most odious charge of cruelty 
and murder on the catholic clmrcli. This is, says Dr. 
Milner, {End of Coiitr. L. 49) the fevorite topic of 
preachers to excite the hatred of tlieir hearers against 
their fellow-christians ; this is the last resource of 
baffled oratorical hypocrites. What is done in P^^ngland 
is done in America. Infidels naturally treasure up all 
the invectives of tl)ose blind zealots against the catholic 
church, and then by a sudden flank movement, they re- 
turn the same invectives against hei-etics, and conclude 
that Christianity is a Moloch that requires human vie- 
tims. There is not a greater and a more palpable lie 
against the christian religion. The spirit of Christi- 
anity is to suffer persecution and to love all men with- 
out exception. '' I say to you," says our Lord, " not 
" to resist evil, but if any man strike thee on tlie right 
" cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matth. v, 30.) 
The beautiful parable of the good Samaritan ; the re- 
buke of our Saviour to his disciples James and John, 
who had asked : '• Lord wilt tliou that we command 
" fire to come down from heaven and consume them." 
(Luke ix, 52.) His order to suffer the cockle to grow 
until the harvest. (Matth. xiii, 30.) liis express de- 
claration that Ills kingdom is not of this world. (Johii 
xviii, o(j.) His words to St. Peter to put again iiis 
sword in its place. (Matth. xxvi, 52.) His own death 
on the cross betv*^een two thieves, such are the obvious 
marks of the spirit of Christianity. During three cen- 
turies millions of christians have died the holv death 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS. 213 

of martyrs and never talked as our modern dogma- 
tizers of the rights of conscience and of the rights 
of revohition. It is the glory of the christian reli- 
gion that it has not been established, like the religion 
of Mohammed, by the poAver of the sword, by cruel 
wars and torrents of blood, but by the power of trutli 
and a passive resistance to persecutions. After kings 
and emperoi'S had embraced Christianity, we find, it is 
true, Liws enacted against heretics, we find wars against 
heathens and infidels, crusades against Mohammedans, 
crusades against manicheans and against wicked kings 
and emperors, we find the tribunal of the inquisition 
and much intolerance which is deprecated by catholics, 
perhaps more than by deists and philanthropists. Our 
best historians have not denied that catholics have too 
often retaliated injuries, and that in time of ignorance 
and general confusion, there have been princes, emper- 
ors, monks and bishops who have lost sight of the 
spirit of Christianity. The members of the catholic 
church are not impeccable. As there are thieves and 
drunkards who violate the laws of God, there are al- 
so hypocrites and fanatics who have not the spirit of the 
church. Persecutions arise from the depravity of hu- 
man nature, and deists and atheists when in power have 
themselves turned persecutors and contradicted their 
system of universal toleration. In order to pass a cor- 
rect judgment on past events, we must not forget that 
infidels and heathens at the time of Charlemagne were 
barbarians entirely difierent from the noble Saxons of 
our days ; that the mohammedans under Soliman and 



214 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

Saladin w/^ve not tlie tame and weak niohamniedans of 
the nineteentli century under Abul Azis ; that the here- 
tics of the middle ages had no resemblance to our 
liberalized dissenting friends of a modern turn of mind. 
Before condemning our ancestors and judging them 
harshly, it is well to examine if toleration was possible, 
and if we, under similar circumstances would have 
practiced toleration. It is always possible to die and to 
give up one's life and property : but are we bound in 
strict justice and equity to heroical deeds of absolute 
perfection ? To suffer martyrdom is a sublime example 
of forbearance. When governments are persecuting 
the church, it is a virtue and a duty to imitate the first 
christians, but if a mob or a party of fanatics persecute 
their fellow-men, without a shadow of spuitual or tem- 
poral authority, is it likewise a virtue or, at least, a 
duty to surrender to them all our rights as men and 
citizens "? No American will maintain that it is. In 
fact, Americans are doing precisely what Charlemagne 
and what the Popes are blamed for, by ignorant fana- 
tics and prejudiced writers. 

Our government after trying by all means to concili- 
ate Indians, after sending peace commissioners, interjji^- 
tors, and teachers, to maintain peaceful relations, if all 
endeavors to stop their depredations foil, our own gov- 
ernment is forced to send troops to tame them by force, 
and it sometimes happens, that white men become, 
through a spirit of revenge, as savage as the savages 
themselves. What are the Mormons in comparison to 
Manicheans and Albigenses, for their polygamy is not 



CATHOLIC MISSIOXAUY WITH AMEKICANS. 215 

anti-social as the principles of Manes, and still our 
armies have been sent against the Mormons. Do we 
persecute Heathens and Mormons ? Are we intolerant ? 
you answer No, y»^e only claim our rights and vindicate 
the supremacy of the law. AYell, our ancestors were 
not sufficiently refined to draw the nice distinction be- 
tween religion and politics, Avhich justify our govern- 
ment, but they, notwithstanding, have acted on the 
same sound principles, and they have volunteered against 
savages or enthusiasts whose actions and principles 
would have destroyed religion and society. When I 
read in old historians that the pagan saxons of Germany 
had repeatedly devastated the empire of Charlemagne, 
with fire and sword, that after being defeated three 
times and submitting at discretion, they rebelled again 
and again, and fought during thirty-three years, I do not 
find it intolerant nor impolitic in that emperor, to urge 
the introduction of Christianity amongst those barbarians. 
(Bergier, t. x, p. 167.) The crusades against Moham- 
medans, have been ill concerted projects, but they have 
worked a happy revolution in Europe, and weakened 
the tremendous power of the Crescent which threaten- 
ed the subjugation of all christian countries. Now, the 
Turks, not only tolerate christians, but the Sultan is a 
better friend of the Pope than many christian Kings 
and Emperors. How is it that St. Louis, King of 
France, and Richard King of England, took the cross 
against the Turks, and that lately Napoleon IH and 
Queen Victoria became the allies of Mohammedans 1 
Because the Turks are no longer dreaded and no longer 



21G CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

enforce the anti-social maxims of the Koran. With 
regard to heretics, protestants, who have need of ances- 
tors, have made them as white as snow, and the Popes, 
as red as scarlet. Unfortunately for them, history can- 
not be recast to suit their purposes. Facts remain facts. 
Whenever the church has sanctioned and urged the exe- 
cution of laws against heretics, history shows that they 
were something worse than deluded beings whose only 
crime consisted in holding opinions different from those 
of Rome. When in 1215, the council of Lateran, which 
Avas in reality a congress of Christendom, urged it on 
temporal Lords to exterminate heretics, those heretics 
were not only the enemies of Christianity but of human 
nature, infinitely worse than the Latter-day Saints. 
Even Mosheim does not deny the shocking violation of 
decency and other crimes of which the Albigenses, 
brethern of the free spirit, etc., were guilty in the thir- 
teenth century. The decree of the council ]*egarded 
only the j9?'^ra27m^ heretics of that time. (See Milner's 
end of controversy, letter 49th.) When in 1401, the 
statute De heretico conihurendOj was passed in England ; 
the preamble sets forth that divers unauthorized preach- 
ers go about * * * * * daily committing enormities too 
horrible to he heard. (See Lingard, vol. iv, p. 2G1.) Ex- 
treme evils require extreme remedies. Temporal princes 
have often exceeded their just authority, but the church 
has never provoked nor advocated violent measures 
against peaceful men. The Waldenses, for example, 
have been unmolested for two li undred years, and would 
never have been molested had they not, at the instigation 



CATHOUO :MlSSIONAliY WITH a:^iekioan3. 217 

of Calviuists, become turbulent and seditious. Hundreds 
of lieresies, mentioned by tlie fathers of the church 
have died a natui-al and peaceful deatli. Finally we 
must bear in mind tliat the primary object of the 
churcli is the salvation of souls. Her mission is not to 
correct in a hurry and in a miraculous way, political er- 
rors ; the direct and first object of her mission is not to 
reform on a sudden the state of society, and improve in 
twenty-four hours the laws and policy of civil commu- 
nities, but to lead us to happiness in the next world. 
The church inculcates divine principles of justice and 
charity, and leaves it to men gradually to improve their 
forms of government and their laws. 

Deist C\ — I cannot see much justice in the Spanish 
Inquisition, nor much charity in handing over to tyrants 
poor heretics to be burnt. If I am not mistaken, that 
barbarous tribunal was instituted by a Pope, jointly 
with the King of Spain. The judges, executors and 
spectators, being all fervent catholics, your church has 
to assume tiie whole responsibility of roasting heretics. 
The vain ceremony of begging for their lives, was a 
mere farce that rather aggravates than excuses your 
guilt. He who looks at a picture of an Auto-da-fe^ Avith 
a crucifix in front, and silly monks in procession, and 
behind them innocent culprits with the scuito-bemto, is 
horror stricken and pities tlie fanatics who had lost so 
far the use of reason, as to burn their fellow-men, and 
glory in deed,s of devilish atrocity. 

Missionary. — Be not frightened, dear sir. There re- 
raains nothing of that dreadliil Spanisl? Inquisition, but 
19 



218 CONVERSATION.:) OF A 

lioiTible caricatiires, rouglily cut to deliglit the bigots 
v>diO prefer those images to those of Jesus Christ and 
his holy ]nother. I confess that Spanish people have 
never handled heretics with kid gloves In the earliest 
days of the church, St. Ambrose and St. Martin refused 
to hold communion vvlth two Spanish Hisliops who had 
interfered with the capital punishment of Priseilian. 
Granting tliat the Spanish people have carried the prin- 
ciple of self-preservation to extremes, and that tlie 
Spanish Inquisition has been all what infidels and prot- 
estants represent it, Spain is not the Avhole churcli. 
To conclude from particulars to general, is a sophism- 
But, the head of the churcli is implicated ! Impartial 
history denies it. Let me read for you a few lines from 
■ a pamphlet entitled, " Facts against Assertions " publish- 
ed by one of our learned Bishops, to put down preju- 
dices : He says : " The inquisition as it was carried 
'^' on in Spain during the reign of some of her kings, 
^- has been purely royal. The constitutional charter 
'Svas published in 1484, not by the Pope, but by the 
" king. The king, and not the Pope, appointed tlie in- 
'^quisitor general. With his con sentr alone were the 
" inferior officers of that tribunal nominated ; the coun- 
" sellors acted, not as ecclesiastical, but as royal judges. 
" Hence, did the committee of the Cortes, which dis- 
'• solved this tribunal in the year 1812, make the fol- 
" lowing declaration in their report : ' The inquisition 
•^ is a purely royal instrument. It is entirely in the 
'' hands of the king, and any mischief which might 
" result from it, must be attributed to the ministry of 



CATliOUO MISSIONAIiY WITH AMElilCANS. 219 

*' the crown/ The same document further states : 
** * The inquisition was in its commencement required 
" and established by the King of Spain, nndev pei^ilo us 
'' and extraordinary circiunstances.^ " * * * * The re 
^' porters conclude that: " circumstances having changed 
'' the inquisition becomes useless and should be dis- 
*' solved.' I ask now, did the Pope or any other Bishop 
" oppose its abolition? But let us for a moment in- 
'' quire Avhich were those causes or extraordinary cir- 
"' cumstances that justified Spain in the adoption of such 
^* measures as the inquisition ? It is a historical fact 
'' that Judaism and Islamism had so deeply sunk their 
" roots into the soil of Spain, that the cultivation and 
*' protection of the national plant became more and more 
'^ endangered, nay, would have been soon entirely op- 
^* pressed by the weight of the exuberant growth of 
*^ these latter destructive powers of despotism and su- 
'* perstition. The great question, then, was, says Le 
" Maistre, (a truly great and deej^ writer,) whether the 
'• nation would continue its Spanish character and inde- 
'' pendance, or whether Judaism and Islamism should di- 
'' vide the spoils of those provinces, and therein exercise, 
'' unrestrained, the fearful principle of superstition, des- 
'' potism and barbarity over the lives and rights of the 
'' people. The Jews had well nigh become masters of 
^' Spain, and between the high blooded Castilians and 
** the degenerated sons of Israel, no good feeling exist- 
'' ed. The hatred was mutual and often carried to ex- 
" cess. The Cortes cried aloud for the adoption of 
'' measures ai>'ainst the latter. An insurrection broke 



220 convi^:ksations of a 

*'• out and dreadful slaughter ensued. The danger in- 
' creased daily, and Ferdinand, in order to save the 
" country from utter ruin, supposed that it was indis- 
" pensably necessary that the inquisition should be es- 
'' tablished, etc. Thus was, this soon abused tribunal 
" established in Spain, under circumstances too, which 
'^ seem to justify there, much more than any where else 
" the well known political axiom, that, great evils, and 
" especially violent attacks leveled at the body of the 
'' State, can never be prevented or repelled, but by 
" measures equally violent. If then, the civil power' 
^4n adopting this constitution, judged it necessary for 
'4ts own safety to render it severe, is it fair, is it just 
" to make the church answerable for such severity ? It 
" became, as a State engine, thus severe, but as an 
" ecclesiastical institution, never ; for, I ask, if such were 
" the spirit of the church, why has not the same inqui- 
'' sition been established in Rome itself? Why did 
" not a censorious world ever hear of »uch horrors being 
^'exercised at the central seat of the church itself? 
" Was it not perhaps in the power of the- Pope to tor- 
^' ture and burn heretics ? Let every reasonable man 
" of justice and truth, but answer this reasonable ques- 
"tion, before he undertakes to foam and vociferate 
"against the iuquisition." (Facts against Assertions, 
p. 39 and 40.) 

What is related by the author, whom you have quot- 
ed, of the treatment of Moriscoes and Jews under Fer- 
dinand, is not true, but were it true, whosoever has a 
country and loves his country, must acknowledge that 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY AVITIi AMERICANS. 221 

it is unfair to institute a parallel between the tolerance 
of the invaders of Spain and the intolerance of victo- 
rious natives, as if the latter had no more right to their 
native land than a race of strangers, who held it with- 
out a title. If a miscreant of the old school who 
clamored : rather Turks than papists had written those 
lines, I would not find it strange, but a man who 
hates intolerance ought not to lie and misrepresent the 
noble Spanish nation, to imbitter inveterate prejudices. 
Having disposed of the Spanish inquisition, I must 
now remark that the general inquisition as recognized 
and regulated by the church, was a step towards pro- 
gress. Its object was to blend together justice and 
mercy ; but the existence of a mixed tribunal generally 
displeased bishops, magistrates and people, and at the 
present time, the friends and enemies of the church ex- 
cepting the Czar of Russia, have, at last, done away 
with the laws of the Old Testament, the law of fear, to 
adopt in full the law of grace, which is a law of love 
and liberty. I must also remark that the intercession 
of the church, in behalf of culprits, was not a farce and 
a vain ceremony, as you asserted. The conduct of St. 
Ambrose and St. Martin was not hypocrisy. When 
Pope Leo the Great, writing about the Manicheans, who 
prohibited the matrimonial connection, and subverted 
all laws, human and divine, said : '' that the ecclesias- 
tical lenity was content, even in this case, with the 
sacerdotal judgment and avoided all sanguinary punish- 
ments," (Leo. Epit. ad Turib.) he was in earnest. The 
truth is that it was a solemn declaration, on the part of 
19* 



222 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

the cliurcli, that she claims no power to punish heretics 
otherwise than by ecclesiastical censures, and that she 
abhors the effusion of blood. According to the very 
dictates of canon law, so adverse is the church to the 
spilling of huinan blood that no one can be promoted 
to holy orders, nor exercise the duties of ecclesiastical 
orders, who has ever been an accomplice in the death or 
mutilation of any human being, although such acts had 
taken place either on the occasion of a just war, or under 
the circumstances of a judicial proceeding. I will give 
you an example. In 1338, the spiritual Lords of England 
departed from the house, observing that in obedience 
to the canons, which forbade the clergy to interfere in 
judgments of blood, they could not remain. (Lingard's 
England, t. iv, p. 177.) The church has always taught, 
with Tertuliian, " tliat it does not belong to religion to 
force religion." (Tert. ad Scapul.) In 525, Pope John 
went in person to Constantinople and obtained from the 
Emperor Justinus a mitigation of the laws against Ari- 
ans. (Fleury, 1. xxxii, n. 5.) Although it was to avoid 
persecution from the tyrant Theodoric, King of Italy, 
the condescension of the Pope is not Ae less remark- 
able. In her councils, the church has made a clear dis- 
tinction between spiritual penalties, which are the sanc- 
tion of her law^s, and temporal punishments, which the 
civil power alone lias a right to inflict. In the third 
council of Lateran, under Alexander III, (tlie same 
Pontiff ^vho is entitled to the gratitude of Europe) the 
last canon reads thus : '* The church, as says St. Leo, 
although reiecting sanguinary j)uiiishments- does not 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY Will I AMERICANS. 223 

refuse lo be hel[)ed by the laws of christian Princes." 
(Fleury, ]. 73, n. xxii.) In 1415, the council of Con- 
stance in condemning John Huss of heresy, declared 
that its power extended no further. (Session xv.) If 
a few men have disgraced Christianity, a host of true 
christians have shed a lustre of imperisliable brilliancy 
on our church, as a Fenelon, the meek Archbishop of 
Cambrai, a St. Francis of Sales, Bishop of Geneva, a 
Hennuyer, Bishop of Lizieux, a Cardinal Pole, a Bar- 
tholomew of Olmeda, a Chancelor Lhopital, a Cecil Cal- 
vert and so many others. On this side of the ocean, 
the virtuous Lascasas and his noble band of zealous 
missionaries would alone retrieve the honor of Spain 
and of religion. When the foolish encyclopedia writer, 
whom yoti have quoted, impudently asserts that fifteen 
millions of natives are said to have been sacrificed to 'the 
genius of popery in about fortu years^ he speaks as if the 
Spanish had crossed the sea to establish Christianity, 
sword in hand. All honor to Columbus, who was a 
hero and a holy man, but it cannot be denied that the 
first Spanish adventurers who reached America, were 
mostly the outcasts of society, convicts and malefactors, 
w^ho came to the new world in searcli of gold. After 
murdering Indians they ended by murdering each 
other. Did they, forsooth ! sacrifice each other to the 
genius of popery ? Washington Irving, who has investi- 
gated Spanish history as thoroughly perhaps as any other 
man in North America, gives us a far diiferent account. 
Hear what he wrote : ^^ The laws and regulations for 
^^ the government of the newly discovered countries 



224 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" and the decisions of the council of the Indians on all 
^' contested points, though tinctured in some degree with 
" the bigotry of the age, were distinguished for wisdom, 
"justice and humanity, and do honor to the Spanish 
" nation. It was only in the abuse of them by indivi- 
" duals, to whom the execution of the law was intiTist- 
" ed, that atrocities Avere committed. It should be re- 
" membered also, that the same nation which gave 
" birth to the sanguinary and rapacious adventurers gave 
" birth likewise to the early missionaries like Lascasas, 
" who followed the sanguinary course of discovery, 
" binding up the wounds inflicted by their countrymen ; 
" men who, in a truly evangelical spirit, braved all kinds 
^* of perils and hardships, and even death itself, not 
^Hhrough prospect of temporal gain or glory, but 
^^ Uirough a desire to ameliorate the condition and save 
" the souls of barbarous and suffering nations. The 
" dauntless enterprise and fearful peregrinations of 
" many of those virtuous men, if properly appreciated, 
" would be found to vie in romantic daring, with the 
" heroic achievements of chivalry, with motives however 
" of a purer and for more exalted nature." (Irving's 
Columbus, vol. 2, p. 326, Ap'x Ed., K Y., 1831.) In- 
stead of taunting us with the deeds of miscreants, it 
would be more just, more honorable and wiser to study 
the lives of our priests and missionaries. Let deists 
look at the vow of the discij^les of Peter of Betan- 
court, who have covered South America with hospitals 
and done so much for the spiritual and corporal wel- 
fare of Negro-slaves and Indians. It runs thus : " I, 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAUY WITH AMEKICANS. 225 

brother N, make a aow of poverty, chastity and hospi- 
tality, and oblige myself to attend the sick who are poor 

though they may be infidels and attacked with contagi- 
ous disorders." Can tolerance and charity go farther ! 
I will not review the other calumny of the encyclo- 
pedia writer on 23rotestant martyrs. If protestants 
have suffered, they may blame themselves. They 
have been not only intolerant but vandals, plunderers 
and rebels to their respective governments. The 
learned Bergier defies protestants to mention so mucli 
as a town, in which their predecessors, on becoming 
masters of it, tolerated a single catholic in it. (Traite 
Historique et Dogmatique de la Religion, t. x, sec. xiii.) 
Rousseau who was educated a protestant, says that 
'' the reformation was intolerant from its cradle, and its 
authors universally persecutors." (Lettres de la Mon- 
tagne, p. 49.) 

But what need of words, says Dr. Milner, to disprove 
the odious calumny that catholics breathe the spirit of 
cruelty and murder, and are obliged, by their religion 
to be persecutors, when every one of our gentry who 
has made the tour of France, Italy and Germany, has 
experienced to the contrary, and has been as cordially 
received by the Pope himself, in his metropolis of 
Rome, where he is both Prince and Bishop, in the 
character of an English protestant, as if he were known 
to be a zealous catholic. (End of Contr. let. 49.) Ameri- 
can tourists can bear testimony to the same fact. If 
they pass through France and enquire, they will hear 
that the government of France pays a salary not only 



226 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

to catholic Priests and Bishops but to Protestant Min- 
isters and Jewish Rabbis. Even a deist must find it 
extremely liberal to pay ministers to preacli the divinity 
of Jesus Christ, and other ministers to deny it. The 
United States pay no ministers ; France pays them 
all, so that both countries treat all ministers alike. If 
you claim that our republic has adopted the wisest plan, 
I neither grant nor deny it. Our system is an experi- 
ment which has never been fairly tested. There are in 
fact, in the whole world, but two countries where error 
and truth have full liberty of action, viz : the United 
States, in the new world, and Belgium in old Europe, 
that system is therefore an experiment, and experience 
better than theory, will test its wisdom or folly. The 
tree wull be known by its fruits. 

As a catholic, I rejoice that the first and best friends 
of religious liberty, have not been infidels and protest- 
ants, as generally supposed, but catholic Bisiiops, and 
eminent catholic statesmen. Already in the fourth 
century, St. Hilarius, Bishop of Poitiers, spoke as an 
American would speak, " Let us_ be allowed, he 
'^ wrote, to deplore the calamity and the folly of our 
" age, when men believe that God is to be protected by 
'' man, and the church of Christ, by. the secular power. 
'^ O Bishops, who believes such a thing, I ask you, what 
'^ means have the apostles employed to preach the gos- 
"per? What arms have they called to their help, to 
*' preach Jesus Christ ? " (Hilarius contra. Aux.) 

Amongst Emperors, Valentinian, Gratianus and An- 
astasius Discerns, advocated liberty of conscience. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 227 

\"alentinian is praised by Ammiaiuis Marcelinus, for 
giving liberty to all and not forcing every body to 

adopt his religion. He wrote to the Bishops assembled 
in Illyria, that he believed their decision, but would 
not molest those who refused to subscribe to it, that it 
might not be said that they obeyed the Emperor rather 
than God. He was not, says Phiquet (Diet, of Here- 
sies Art. ArianSj) considered as a heretic, or an enemy 
to the chui'ch. In modern times, Henry IV, King of 
France, and even Mary, Queen of England, granted 
liberty of conscience to their protestant subjects. It 
is true that the latter has persecuted in the last years 
of her reign, but she has notwithstanding the lionor 
to have tried the system of toleration in advance of 
either protestant s or deists. 

If we come to the new world, we find that Maryland 
was truly the " Beacon rock " of civil and religious lib- 
ertv. Before Roger Williams, and long before William 
Penn, Cecil Calvert, or Lord Baltimore, a catholic pro. 
prietary of Maryland, proclaimed perfect freedom of 
conscience to all. Let the friends of civil and religious 
liberty but read the oath of the Governor of that Colo- 
ny, and then say v>diether catholics deserve to be held up 
to popular odium. Although I have been already too 
long, allow me to read it over. The oath was this : " I 
^- will not by myself or another, directly or indirectly, 
''- trouble, molest or discountenance any person profess- 
'' ing to believe in Jesus Christ, for or in respect to 
'^ religion. I will make no difference of persons in con- 
" ferring offices, favors or rewards for or in respect to 



228 CONVEUSATIONS OF A 

" religion, but merely as they should be found faithful 
" and well deserving, and endowed with moral virtues 
'•' and abilities : my aim shall be public unity, and if any 
^' person or officer shall molest any person professing 
''to believe in Jesus Christ, on account of his religion, 
" I will protect the person molested and punish the of- 
" fender." This is truly in keeping with what the 
catholic colony of Maryland was intended for, by its 
brave, noble minded and magnanimous founder. It 
was the refuge of all that Avere oppressed and perse- 
cuted in the wilderness of America itself. Even Rob. 
Baird does to truth so much justice as to pay a tribute 
of respect to him by saying: *^ We cannot refuse to 
" Lord Baltimore's colony the praise of having estab- 
^'' lislied the first government in modern times, in which 
" entire toleration was granted to all denominations of 
'' christians, this, too, at a time when the New England 
^^ Puritans could hardly bear one with the other, much 
^^ less with papists, when the zealots of Virginia held 
'' both papists and dissenters in nearly equal abhorrence, 
'^ when in fact, tolerance was not considered in nny part 
*' of the protestant woild due to lloinan catholics." 
(Keligion in Ameiica, B. ii, cli. 5.) After a liappy 
but short existence, this beacon of religious and civil 
liberty became extinct. And hov/ ? By whom ? Was 
it by a bull of the Pope ? No, but by order of 
Clayborne, the commissioned creature of Oliver Crom- 
weVi. To resume in a few words, it is certain that 
Jesiis Christ has given no order nor pretext to sanction 
intolerance ; that the first christians suffered persecu- 



^ CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 229 

tion and never retaliated 5 that when the church has 
availed itself of material force, it has done so in self- 
defence ; and that it has never clanned but positively 
disclaimed the right to persecute infidels or heretics. 

Deist C. — The burning of John Huss and Jerome of 
Prague by the council of Constance, the persecutions 
by the bloody Queen Mary, the St. Bartholomew, the 
savage edicts of Louis XIV against his Huguenot sub- 
jects are historical facts, which cannot be reconciled 
with a sincere love of religious liberty. 

Missionary. — It would be easier to eradicate Canadian 
thistles from North America than to extirpate inveter- 
ate prejudices from the hearts of unbelievers. The 
stereotype accusations against the church, which you 
bring forth, have been answered as often as made and 
proved to be misrepresentations, but some have eyes 
and do not see, and some like Pilate, ask : What is 
truth ? and do not wait for an answer. 

The council of Constance did not burne John Huss, nor 
Jerome of Prague, nor any heretic. It condemned here- 
tical and anti-social doctrines, and positively declared, 
as I have already stated, that its power extended no fur- 
ther. The civil authorities, (not the church,) dealt with 
those men as with notorious rebels, fomentors of sedi- 
tions and accessories to the death of peaceful citizens. 
Protestants and infidels who make martyrs of such men, 
and call history their lying romances have only to read 
the review of Fox's book of martyrs, or any catholic 
historian to be convinced that our adversaries have shut 
tlieir eyes to the true character of their heroes. 
20 



230 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

With regard to Queen Mary, she deserved less the 
title of bloody than good Queen Bess, for the very 
priests massacred by Elizabeth alone, equal or outnum- 
ber the whole of the victims under Mary. (Water- 
vv^orth Keformation, p. 242.) But granting that she 
has been guilty, we can at least show that Cardina 1 
Pole, said "that pastors ought to have bowels, even to 
their straying sheep ; that Bishops were fathers and 
aught to look on those that erred as their sick children 
and not for that, to kill them." (Burnet, t. ii, p. 467.) 
We can show that Alphonso di Castro, King Philip's 
confessor preached before the court of Mary that her 
cruel proceedings were contrary, not only to the test, 
but to the spirit of the gospel. (Lingard's England, t. 
viii, p. 107.) 

The atrocity of the massacre on St. Bartholomew's 
day, must be imputed to the unprincipled Catharine de 
Medicis, who alternately favored Catholics and Hugue- 
nots, as it suited her ambition, and to the revengeful 
Charles IX. Immediately after the murder, the King 
issued a proclamation in which he said; "that whatso- 
ever had happened, had been done by^is express order, 
not through religious animosity, but to defeat the exe- 
crable plots of Coligny and his adherents." (Thuanus, 
1. iii.) That savage villany was contrived without the 
participation of a single individual of the French clergy, 
and no body of men, was mo]*e forward to declari3 
against it, when known, than the clergy. According 
to an account published in 1582, and made up from the 
returns of the ministers themselves, in the different 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY AVITU AMEUICANS. 231 

towns of Fniiice, tlie whole amount of victims Avas 
seven hundred and eighty-six ; but Avere it reduced to 
one, it Avas a shame ! The Avriter of the Encyclopedia 
of Religious Knowledge, (art. persecution,) states that 
according to Thuanus above thirty thousand protestants 
Avere destroyed in the massacre, or as others affirm aboA'^e 
one hundred thousand. Such is protestant history ! 
What he says of the joy of Pope Gregory XIII, of a 
solemn mass, of a jubilee, of firing the cannon of St. 
Angelo, of bonfires, etc., etc., is a pure calumny, for 
the truth is that the King of France deceived the Pope 
by representing that he had narroAvly escaped from a 
dreadful conjuration, and Rome rejoiced at that sup- 
posed escape, and not on account of the horrible deed, 
which Av^as not yet knoAvn out of France. Such is 
protestant history ? Let me add that Pope Gregory 
XIII, repeated Avith tears in his eyes, " Avho can assure 
me that innocent people have not perished ? " Such 
Avas the rejoicing of the father of the faithful. 

The same Avriter ends his lying article on the revoca- 
tion of the edict of Nantes Avith these Avords : With 
these scenes of desolation and horror the popish clergy 
feasted their eyes ! ! ! The revocation of the edict of 
Nantes, AA\as a mere political measure. Louis XIV, 
Avas not of a nature to expose himself to the late of 
Charles I. The memoirs of the Dauphin, father to 
Louis XV, deserve to be read as an apology to the 
severe measure against the Huguenots of France. After 
relating AA^Piat France had suffered during seven con- 
secutiA^e reigns, he says: ^^ If the Prince has not the 



232 CONVEKSATIONS 01^' A 

^' right of commanding the conscience, he lias that at 
" least of providing for the safety of the State, and of 
^^ chaining down fanaticism, which threatens to intro- 
'^ diice anarchy and confusion. * * * * * * Success 
" attended the wisdom of the measm'c ; and though it 
'^ should seem, if credit v/ere given to the infmiated de- 
" clamations of some of the Huguenot ministers, that 
" the King had armed one half of his subjects, to 
" slaughter the other half, yet the truth is that every 
" thing passed to the greatest satisfaction of the King, 
'^ without the effusion of blood, and without disturbance. 
c' The greatest number made their abjuration. The 
'^ most seditious, stunned by this vigorous blow, showed 
" themselves the most tractable of all, as to those who 
^^ were more tenacious of their erroneous tenets, they 
'' left the kingdom and took away with them the seeds 
" of all our civil wars." (Proyart's life of the Dau- 
phin.) If afterwards some Huguenots were put to 
death by the hangman, or the Kings dragoons, this 
happened in consequence of their mutinous conduct, 
and only in some particular provinces where the Hug- 
uenots committed the greatest enormities and most 
horrible devastations, as the same memoirs and other 
historians testify, Maimbourg, for example, a French 
historian, in his history of Calvin says : that the Hug- 
uenots burnt or destroyed not less than twenty thousand 
churches, and put to death a million of their fellow sub- 
jects, without trial, without authority, often in the most 
excruciating tortures, and strange to relate, the Calvin- 
ists, and tlieir off-springs, the puritans and congrega- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS 233 

tioiialists are the loudest to hollow that the woman who 
sat upon a scarlet colored beast, has steeped her hands 
in the blood of sixty-eight millions five hundred thou- 
sand human beings ! They are like thieves, hollowing 
thieves ! to deceive honest people ; and in order to 
leave no objection unanswered, you may apply the same 
remark to what Addison says of pojjish sorites. 

" If the Huguenots of France, says Brownson, had 
" demeaned themselves as loyal subjects, if they had 
^^'been contented with holding and practicing their 
" heresy for themselves, and had suffered catholics in 
" their neighborhood to practice unmolested the true 
"religion, the State might have permitted them to 
" damn their souls, as they insisted on doing; but when 
"they abused the liberty secured to them by the edict 
" of Nantes to disturb the peace of the State, to perse- 
" cute catholics, to sack and burn catholic villages, to 
" destroy catholic churches and convents, to murder 
" women and children, or carry them away captive, it 
" was the right, it was the duty of the civil authority 
" to intervene and reduce them to subjection. * * * * 
" We are not friends to severity, and we are perfectly 
" well aware of the folly of trying to force men into 
" heaven. God himself forces no man to receive his 
" bounty, but leaves all men to the freedom of theii' 
" own choice, subject only to the penalty of eternal 
" damnation for choosing wrong ; but we should be 
" wanting in common sense if we did not recognize the 
" right and the duty of the civil government, Avhen 
" heresy and infidelity undertake to propagate them- 
20* 



234 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

" selves by carnal weapons, by fire and sword, to inter- 
" vene, and by physical force if necessaiy, to coerce 
" tliem into peaceable subjects and harmless neighbors." 
(Brownson's Review, Jan. 1852, p. 26.) 

Deist C. — You cannot fully convince my mind, unless 
it is shown that your church has given up her infalli- 
bility. Protestants who acknowledge no infallible tri- 
bunal, nor any other judge than the Bible, cannot long- 
retain the bloody tenets of bigotry and superstition. 
The Bible will not burn or kill any body. Fallible 
men and fallible chui-ches can use no compulsion, with- 
out a flagrant contradiction : an infallible church can- 
not fail to use it, and is essentially intolerant. Your 
dogma of an infallible church is the true source of 
fanaticism ; with your dogma, there is no forbearance 
of errors, no hope of improvement, no liberty. Hence 
the present Pope, (Pius IX,) with all his good qualities, 
is not one iota more liberal than his predecessors, for ex- 
ample: he openly declares in the appendix to his ency- 
clical of 1864, " that the Roman Pontiff cannot and 
aught not, to reconcile himself and agree with progress, 
liberalism and modern civilization." _^(]!Sr. 80.) He 
condemns the most evident propositions, such as these ; 
" the church has not the power of availing herself of 
force, or any direct or indirect power." (IsT. 23.) "The- 
churcli must be separated from the State, and tlie State 
from the church." (N". 55.) 

Missionary. — Fallible men may become indifferent to 
truth, and being indifferent, despise and tolerate truth, 
but inference to truth, which is the greatest crime after 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 235 

atheism, can lead to nothing higher than apathy. Where 
there is no check to errors and vice, there is no security, 
and human passions, self-interest or an infernal fury 
may, at any time, change fallible men, who judge for 
themselves, into tigers. 

An infallible church cannot tolerate error and sin, so 
as to be indifferent to holiness and truth, but the right 
of truth and holiness do not conflict with the dictates 
of benevolence and mercy. God, who hates sin and 
error, maketh his sun shine upon the just and the un- 
just, and has commanded us, to suffer the cockle to 
grow among the wheat until the harvest, and to love 
our enemies. Such are, the true principles of the in- 
fallible church, intolerance toward error and sin, but 
tolerance and charity toward the persons who are blind- 
ed by error or enslaved by sin. Infallibility, instead 
of being the source of fanaticism, is a pledge of uni- 
versal benevolence and true liberty. Kill errors, but 
love men, said St. Augustin. All our Popes have been 
the true friends of religious liberty, and the illustrious 
pontiff, Pius IX, in opposing modern licentiousness and 
the latest forms of irreligion, is. like his predecessors, 
the prop of social order and true liberty. His last 
proposition, for example, is nothing more than what 
common sense would suggest. It is not an order to 
have church and State united, as in England, but a 
simple condamnation of visionaries who maintain, what 
is impossible, viz : that the church and State must be 
separated. The church and State are independant of 
each other. We have always drawn a distinction be- 



236 CONVERSATIONS OF A. 

tween the two powers, but although the temporal and 
spiritual power, are, by divine institution, distinct and 
independent, it is their duty and interest to help each 
other, and, in fact they cannot be entirely separated. It 
is easy to say, let the church mind spiritual things, and 
the State temporal affairs ; in reality, that theory would 
destroy church and State, for the citizen has a soul, and 
the christian has a body. The true basis of the civil 
power is not brutal force, but justice and order, which 
irreligion would destroy, and which false religions but 
imperfectly promote. A church to exist as a church, 
must have an outward organization. A church purely 
spiritual would be an impalpable chimerical nothing. 
The church, therefore has need of the State, and the 
State of the church. Those truths are not denied in 
our republic. Without having an established church, 
(thanks be to God !) we have laws to protect all churches 
and religious meetings ; laws to exempt ministers of the 
gospel from serving on juries and from working on high 
roads ; we have chaplains in the army ; chaplains to 
pray in Congress and in State Legislatures, we have 
days of thanksgiving and prayers, we liave Sunday laws 
which, some of our German citizens find stringent 
enough, etc. Our free government agrees therefore, 
in practice, with our wise Pope, Pius IX, and in truth 
it has been more just and liberal towards our church 
and religious institutions, than many Kings and Em- 
perors of the old world. We ask for no privilege, but 
give us fair play, and the cross, which has triumphed 
over idols in spite of gibbets and dungeons, will triumph 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 237 

over heresies, without the use of lire and sword, and, if 
needed, hi spite of these. 

Deist C. — You have made a more successful attempt 
to reconcile the views and tenets of your church witli 
our improved notions of religious liberty, than I ex- 
pected. You have facts and arguments in your favor ; 
but besides liberty of conscience, there is civil liberty. 
I like to know how you will reconcile history with the 
aim of your Popes and hierarchy for arbitrary power 
and universal domination. Eminent jurists, as Black- 
stone, eminent historians as Hume and Burnet, all prot- 
estant writers represent your Popes as cunning, crafty 
old men, who have long sought to concentrate all civil 
and ecclesiastical power into their hands. For that 
purpose have they absolved subjects from their oath of 
allegiance to their sovereigns, and exc€>mmunicated and 
deposed Kings and Emperors, who refused to bend their 
knee to the universal monarch. Instead of favoring 
democratic and republican institutions, they have dis- 
countenanced and disconcerted every where the efforts 
of patriots who sought to throvv^ off the yoke of tyranny. 
They have condemned secret societies, vfhose aim is 
freedom. In a word freedom and liberty increase, as 
it were in a ratio to the decrease of the power of the 
Pope. 

Missionary. — The reproaches against the church and 
its Popes on the subject of civil liberty are the shame 
of jurists and historians, who were naturally prejudiced 
against the Popes, because they Avere fed and fattened 
with spoils, stolen from the catholic church. I protest 



238 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

against their testimony and appeal to facts. I must 
first remark that the christian religion is at home under 
a free government, and will not die under the most des- 
potic rule, because the church is not a kingdom of this 
world, but a spiritual kingdom into which all are admis- 
sible, and which is designed, by its founder, to be 
compatible with all forms of government. All our 
Saviour is recorded to have said in regard to govern- 
ments is, "render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God 
what is God's.'' Christians have obeyed, without mur- 
muring, the tyrants who persecuted them, but it is a 
folly to think that they are not thankful to God for the 
blessing of a free government and that they do not ap- 
preciate it. In theory and in practice the church has all 
ways endeavored to combine the security of life, honor 
and property with* the greatest amount of j^ersonal free 
dom. Tou may consult Suarez, a Jesuit of Granada 
whose works on laws and divinity are not inferior to any 
in the world, and you will not find fault with his views 
on civil government. He says in the second book of 
his great work on law, that " certain canonists held 
" civil magistracy to have been conferred by God on 
" some prince, and to remain always in jiis heirs of 
'^ succession, but that such an opinion has neither au- 
"thority nor foundation, for the power, by its very na- 
^* ture, belongs to no one man, but a multitude of men^ 
u * * * ^ ^- « r^^^^ ^]^Q reason is evident, since all men 
" are born equal, and consequently no one lias a politi- 
" cal jurisdiction over another nor any dominion. * * 
c4* * ^r js^^Y did political power begin to exist, till 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY. WITH AMERICANS. 239 

'* many families began to be collected into one entire 
'- community. Hence as the commmiity did not begiii 
^' by Adam's creation, nor by any Avill of his, but by 
'' that of all who formed it, we cannot properly say that 
'^ Adam has naturally a political headship in such socie- 
"' ty, for there are no principles of reason from which 
'' this could be inferred, since by the law of nature it is 
'• no right of thQ progenitor to be even king of his own 
'' posterity." 

So much for theory. As to practice we find in his- 
tory that civil liberty progressed as the church pro- 
gressed. The feudal system, with all its imperfections, 
was progress. Guizot (a protestant) remarks 'Hhat the 
'' federative system is one Avhich evidently requires the 
'' greatest maturity of reason, of morality, of civilization 
'^ in society to which it is applied. Yet, we find that 
" this was the kind of government which the feudal 
''system attempted to establish, for, feudalism, as a 
" whole, was truly a confederation. It rested on the 
"same principles, for example, as those on which is 
" based at the present day, the federative system of the 
" United States of America. It affected to leave in the 
" hand of each great proprietor all that portion of the 
'^ government, of sovereignty, which could be exercis- 
" ed there and to carry to the sovereign or to the gene- 
" ral assembly of barons, the least portion of power, 
" and only this, in cases of absolute necessity." (Civil- 
ization in Modern Europe, Lect. iv, p. 98.) 

The great defect of the feudal system was, that pet- 
ty tyrants from their fortified castles (whose remains 



240 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

are seen all over Western Europe) Avere continually at 
war with each other ; but it remains true that the fede- 
rative system, though theoretically the most simple, is 
ill practice the most complex, and that it has led to 
better forms of government. Republics have not been 
unknown in w^hat is wrongfully called dark ages. The 
republics of Florence, Pisa, Brescia, Ragusa, Sienna, 
the flourishing republic of Venice, the free communi- 
ties of Flanders, the republic of Switzerland, have 
played important parts in history. Spain had enjoyed 
much freedom until the reformers abridged the liberties 
not only of northern kingdoms but of other countries, 
as it can be shown by indisputable facts and testimonies. 
In England the great Magna Charta of English freedom 
was established as early as the year 1215. Guizot, the 
learned minister of state, says : " There is hardly one 
" who does not know the origin of the free institutions 
*^ of England, how in 1215, a coalition of the great 
^^ barons, wrested Magna Charta from John, but it is 
^^ not quite so generally known that this charter v/as 
" renewed and confirmed from time to time by almost 
^^ every King. It vras confirmed upwards of thirty 
^'^ times between the thirteenth and sixteentli centuries, 
^^ besides which new statutes were passed to confirm 
^^and extend its exactments." (Lect. xiii.) Yes, it is 
ail established fact that every important feature oi a 
free government, popular representation, trial by jury, 
exemption from taxation, without the consent of the 
governed, habeas corpus, and the great fundamental 
principle, "that all temporal power emanates from the 



CATHOLTC MISSIONARY AVITII AMERICANS. 241 

people, have been firmly established in catholic times, 
and that we have not to thank heresy or infidelity for 
their discovery. The Magna Charta of England with 
the trial by jury and the habeas corpus is the very basis 
of all our institutions in these United States, and we 
are therefore indebted for our liberties, as are the 
engiish people to a cardinal Langton, to catholic barons, 
and to the catholic yeomanry of Runny-Mede. 

Instead of quoting a long list of christian and catho- 
lic statemen, soldiers, merchants, etc., either natives or 
foreigners, Avho have helped to secure our indepen- 
dance, one testimony is sufficient. It is that of the 
great Washington. In an address to the Roman 
Catholics in the United States of America he says, 
amongst other complimentary words : ^' As mankind be- 
" comes more liberal they will be more apt to allow 
"that all those who conduct themselves as worthy 
"members of the community, are equally entitled to 
" the protection of civil government. I hope ever to 
" see America amongst the foremost nations in exam- 
"ples of justice and liberaltiy, and I presume that your 
" fellow-citizens will not forget the patriotic part which 
" you took in the accomj)lishment of their revolution 
" and the establishment of their government, or the im- 
" portant assistance which they received from a nation 
" in which the Roman Catholic faith is professed," etc. 
(Dated March, 1790, and signed George Washington.) 

But the Popes have aimed at arbitrary power and 
condemned every effort of patriots against tyi'ants! 
Another blunder and misrepresentation! When a 
21 



242 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Bolivar, tlie Washington of South America, when 
other heroes and founders of republics asserted their 
independence, have they been excommunicated by the 
church'? When the French clergy swore obedience 
to Louis Phillip, and then to the republic, and after- 
wards to the empire, have they been excommunicated? 
The best answer which I can give you is a passage 
from the Boston Quai'terly Review. The talented 
writer says: (N". xvii, January, 1842^ p. 13, 14.) "The 
'^ church labored with untiring zeal and perseverance 
"from the first century to the fifteenth and successfully 
" laid the foundations of all that society now is. Dur- 
" ing the greater part of that period, by means of its 
" superior intelligence and virtue, it ruled the state, 
" modified its actions and compelled its administrators 
" to consult the rights of man, by protecting the poor, 
" the feeble and the defenceless. It is not easy to esti- 
" mate the astonishing progress it effected for civiliza- 
" tion during the long period called by narrow-minded 
" and bigoted protestant historians, the dark ages. 
" Never before had such labors been performed for 
" humanity. Never before had there been such an im- 
" mense body as the christian clergy, animated by a 
" common spirit and directed by a common will and 
" intelligence to the cultivation and grow^th of the mor- 
^^ al virtues and the arts of peace. Then was tamed the 
" wild barbarian and the savage heart inade to yield to 
" the humanizing influence of tenderness, gentleness, 
" meekness, humility and love ; then imperial crown and 
" royal sceptre paled before the crozier ; and tlie repre- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS. 243 

" sentative of Him who had lived and toiled, and preach- 
" ed and died in ol^scurity^ m poverty and disgrace 
" was recognized and made himself felt in the palace 
" and the cottage, in the court and the camp, striking 
" terror into the rich and noble, and ponring the oil and 
'' wine of consolation into the bruised heart of the poor 
" and friendless. Wrong, wrong have they been who 
'' have complained that Kings and Emperors were sub- 
" ject to the sj^iritual head of Christendom. It was well 
" for man that there was a power above tlie brutal 
" tyrants called Emperors, Kings and Barons, who rode 
"rough-shod above the humble peasant and artizan; 
" well that there was a power even on earth, that could 
" touch their cold and atheistical hearts and make them 
" tremble as the veriest slaves. The heart of humanity 
" weeps with joy when a murderous Henry is scourged 
" at the tomb of Thomas A, Becket ; or when another 
" Henry awaits barefoot, shivering with cold and hunger 
" at the door of the Vatican. 

'•Aristocratic protestantism Avliich has never dared 
" enforce its discipline on royalty or nobility, may weep 
" over the exercise of such power, but it is to the ex- 
" istence and exercise of such power that the people 
" owe their existence, and the doctrine of man's equali- 
" ty to man, its progress. 

" All that the church has really done for humanity, 
" was done during what was termed the dark ages. It 
" then laid the foundations of modern civilization, breath- 
" ed into it its humane and gentle sjDirit and animated it 
" for an uninterrupted career of peaceful conquest. It 



244 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

'' was thei], it established schools and universities, found- 
" ed scholarships and prepared for a system of universal 
'- education. It emancipaljed the slave, declared all men 
" equal before God, raised the bare-footed friar to the 
'' throne of Christendom and made the rich sinner dis- 
'i gorge his misbegotten wealth, to feed the poor he had 
" robbed and to serve the interests of humanity. Chil- 
'' dren as we are of what is called the reformation, and 
" which was nothing but a rebellion against the chm^ch 
" and the establishment of insurrectiohary government' 
" we are too prone to forget the benefits of the church, 
" and casting a veil over its struggles and its labors of 
'' love, we would fain make it appear that there was no 
" light in the world till protestantism was born, and no- 
'' thing done for humanity till a German monk dared burn 
" the papal bull. But all that has been done since, is but 
'' the development of what was done before. He is an 
^' undutifnl son who curses his own mother and no good 
^^ can come of him.'' 

But have not the Popes condemned secret societies ? 
Yes, and with great justice. Secret societies are not so 
secret but the Popes can weigh with great accuracy the 
good and evil of such associations. The Popes have 
never condemned their friends. If the members of 
secret societies have been condemned, it is because they 
are unfriendly to the true religion, and therefore un- 
friendly to order and liberty. You may read at leisure 
our reasons for rejecting secret societies. (I gave him 
a copy of a conversation with a free mason, which is 
found at the end of this cliapter.) 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 245 

Deist C. — I will read those papers. My next objec- 
tion to your cliurch is your opposition to the liberty of 
the press and to tlie diffusion of knowledge. Where 
your church has full power, not a book, not even the 
Bible can be printed or read without the permission of 
what you call, spiritual suiyeriors. Why do you not fol- 
low the advice of St. Paul, who in exhorting the faith- 
ful to receive what is good, and reject what is bad, al- 
lows them to judge for themselves ? The reason is ob- 
vious. It is because ignorance leads to a blind sub- 
mission, and a blind submission to ignorance, as a cause 
and effect of each other. The liberty of the press is 
the palladium of our liberties. A cliurch which does 
not recognize the rights and liberty of the press may 
suit despotic governments, but it is at war with our free 
institutions. No American can join it. 

Missionary. — You cannot be more opposed to see the 
press under the thumb of the powers that be, than 
many of our best catholic members. ''- Liberty of the 
" press ! (said Count De Montalambert in his great 
"speech at Brussels, in 1863.) That is to say pub- 
^licity, that is to say intellectual and moral, litterary 
"and scientific, political and social life. * * '^ * * * 
" Publicity is the weapon of the weak ; it is the refuge 
" of the oppressed; it is the check upon the strong, up- 
" on the wicked, upon liars. In democratic society, it 
" is the supreme guarantee, one that no other can re- 
" place, the only substitute for all those which ancient 
^' society found in the hierarchy of ranks, in the inde- 
'' pendence of conditions, in the empire of traditions. 
21* 



246 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

^' For us catholics, who are in the minority in so many 
" modern States, and who, even where we are the ma- 
'\]ority, have neither its lights nor its strength, it is the 
'' first of our wants. Liberty of the press, is liberty to 
'^ complain, and complaint when it has publicity to help 
'' it, is the ram that batters down tlie walls of citadels 
''and dungeons. Yes, however oppressive the law, 
" however violent popular prejudices, complaint armed 
'' with the right of speech and pen, will overcome them. 
'' It was the liberty of the j)ress, aided and guided by 
^Hhe public speaking, which after thirty years of en- 
'' deavor, wrested catholic emancipation from the bigot- 
'-' ry of protestant England. After ten years of struggle, 
'-' they v/on liberty of education under the French re- 
'' public." 

The illustrious speaker said at the same time : " God 
" forbid that I should disguise the abuse of the press, 
" or that, I should demand, as some do, its absolute 
" impunity or unlimited liberty '? I am not even one of 
''those who believe that good books, or good news 
" papers can repair all the mischief done by bad books 
'' or bad newspapers." All wise and sensible Ameri- 
cans will share^ the opinion of Montalembert. The. 
press, like all good things, may be used for evil pur- 
poses. During our late civil war, the United States 
did not allow the press to print the philii^pics of 
traitors; v^^hen druggists sell a poisonous substance, 
they are obliged to label it imson ; when parents pro- 
vide their children with books, they have a natural right 
to keep away from their houses immoral and irreligious 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 247 

books. Now, if a State, for its self-preservation has a 
right to prevent the printing and spreading of treason- 
able articles, if legislators, for the preservation of hu- 
man lives, have a right to prevent the free sale of poi- 
son, if parents for the Avelfare of their children, have a 
right to a censorship over the books which are put into 
^heir hands, how much more has the church of God, 
whose duty it is to save immortal souls, the inalienable 
right, divine and human, to forbid, even under the pain 
of ecclesiastical censures, the use and reproduction of 
immoral and heretical books ! you are aware that the 
church does not interfere with the press in vv^orldly mat- 
ters, and you are not rightly informed when you assert 
that no book, not even the Bible can be read or printed 
without permission. There are millions of books and 
millions of Bibles which are not under the ban of the 
church. I know that men of talents and learning have 
asserted that, in the primitive church, the censure of 
books was restricted to their use in public reading, 
(Van Espan) or that it was not to interdict their use, 
but to warn the faithful to be upon their guard in read- 
ing them, (Fleury's Discourse on the jurisdiction of the 
church,) but supposing that those authors are not mis. 
taken, (i) and that St. Paul allows the faithful to judge 
for themselves, it remains certain that all immoral and 



(1.) St. Liguoii, in a dissertation on that subject, proves clearly that, not 
only the public, but the private use of bad books has been prohibited at all 
limes ; that Pope Gelasius has prohibited them under \)eniilty ot Anathema, 
that the words of Hormisdas to a Bishop, whose duty it is to feed his flock 
and examine books, do not apply to laymen ; that the passage of St. Paul, 
try all things, related to new prophecies as shown by the context, and finally 
that all the reasons of Van Espan, Fleury and others, are nugatory. 



248 CONVERSATIONS OB^ A 

irreligious books are a nuisance, and that their condem- 
nation is not only useful but necessary, at least, as a 
warning for the guidance of the illiterate. "Let noth- 
" ing temjDt you to read bad books of any kind, wrote 
" Anon. It is better not to read at all than to read 
" bad books. A bad book is the worst of thieves ; it 
"robs us of time, money and principles." (Sander's 
new fourth Reader, p. 81.) 

And in the next lesson, we read : " Throw the book 
" into the fire (bad book,) whatever name it may bear 
" on the title page. Throw it into the fire, young man, 
" though it should have been the gift of a friend ; young 
" lady, away with the whole set, though it should be 
" the prominent furniture of a rosewood book-case." 
(Do. p. 82, from Southey.) As error and immorality 
cannot enhance the cause of liberty, but tend to its 
destruction, I conclude that the laws of the church 
against bad books are wise, and therefore favorable to 
the true spirit of liberty. 

Deist C. — I must insist on the 2,Teat ig-norance of 
your people, for it is the natural effect of christian prin- 
ciples. The gospel blesses those who believe without 
seeing, that is, with a blind faith. St. Paul reprobates 
philosophy. Pope Gregory went farther by condemn- 
ing the study of grammar, and another Pope farther 
still, by casting Galileo in prison, because his system of 
astronomy did not agree with the scriptures, but the 
world moves in spite of anathemas. The dark ages 
have not been called darJc without reason, for the monk- 
ish mania had established in those days the reign of 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 249 

ignorance and stupidity ; but we have no need to go as 
far as the dark ages to find a personification of igno- 
rance ; look at our Irish population, the most of them 
are a disgrace to our land ; look at catholic countries. 
Your Priests and Bishops are well educated, for it is 
their interest to possess knowledge, the more effectu- 
ally to retain their power ; the higher classes have also 
good colleges and universities, for their benefit, and fur- 
nish now and then an illustrious name, but the laity, 
that is the people, or the vast body of the lower class 
remain illiterate and ignorant. Your church discourages 
public schools, or at most, encourages only sectarian 
schools, where profane knowledge is sacrificed to the 
teaching of catechism and prayers. Hence, the com- 
mon people are still as ignorant as in dark ages, and re- 
main the slaves of suj)erstition and despotism. 

Missionary. — I have already remarked that unbe- 
lievers fancy that they alone are rational, learned and 
refined. They, in unison with protestants, loudly boast 
that they alone are enlightened and free. I remember 
a remark of Dr. Brownson whicli deserves attention. 
He says: "Many is the fledgeling philosopher or phi- 
" lanthroj^ist who fancies the world is rapidly ad- 
" vancing, because he has learned something to-day of 
" whicli he Avas ignorant yesterday." Sometimes we 
" fancy we are making discoveries, when we are only 
" learning what the scientific take it for granted every 
"body knows." (Brownson's Review, Jan., 1847.)' 
With infidels, to be a christian is a mark of ignorance, 
to believe on the strongest evidence is bUnd faith, to 



250 convp:rsations of a 

pray is superstition. Sucli is the inward feeling and 
outward exclamation of every infidel. Were it true 
that christians are even more ignorant than you repre- 
sent them to be, it rrould not justify infidelity, for if 
God can tolerate ignorance upon earth, without ceasing 
to be God, 1 do not see why God's church would cease 
to be the true church because, forsooth, some of its 
members w^ould remain artless, rude or illiterate. The 
aim of the church is to lead her members to heaven, 
where they shall know all things, and surely people may 
go to heaven without the knowledge of arts and sci- 
ences. The cultivation of arts and sciences does not 
necessarily elevate and improve the moral man. The 
Egyptians and Greeks, with all their knowledge, were 
the most stupid of people in regard to religion, and the 
most debased in regard to morality. Spiritual perfec- 
tion and holiness is within the reach of simple peasants 
and savages, as well as within the reach of scholars, and 
the former may have a closer communication with God 
than proud philosophers. The humble author of the 
Following of Christ, tells a great truth wlien he says : It 
is not learning that makes a man just and holy, but a 
virtuous life that makes him the friend of God. * * ^'" 
Vanity of vanities ! and all is vanity except to love 
God and serve him alone. (Book i, ch. 1.) But, al- 
though ignorance is not a crime, I admit that it is an im- 
perfection, and that to foster it is wrong and sinful ; but 
I contend that infidels utter a great calumny and give 
a proof of very little learning when they abuse Jesus 
Christ, St. Paul, our Popes, our Monks and our church 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 251 

in general, as if they were intent on keeping the peo- 
ple in ignorance and vassalage. When our Saviour 
blessed those who believe without seeing, he only con- 
demned the stubborness of unbelievers, who blind 
themselves with sophisms and are infinitely worse than 
Thomas ; when St. Paul condemns the wisdom of the 
wise, and says, that it pleased God, by the foolishness 
of preaching, to save them that believe, (1 Cor. i, 21) 
his meaning is not equivocal. He meant that philoso- 
phers were fools because they made a bad use of their 
reason, and our modern philosophers are not a whit 
wiser ; when Pope Gregory blamed Didier, Arch-Bish- 
op of Vienna, because he spent his time in teaching 
grammar, he did so, not because he reprobated gram- 
mar, but because an Arch-Bishop has more important 
duties to fulfill than those of a school teacher ; when 
Galileo was imprisoned it was not on account of his 
astronomy, but it was to gratify a mean impulse of re 
venge ; granting that Galileo was imprisoned unjustly, 
ought we not to say with Chateaubriand, that it is a 
mere shadow in a flood of light. Have not St. Hilary, 
Nicholas V, Leo X, and so many other Popes, done 
enough for arts and sciences to put to shame the de- 
tractors of the Popes ! With regard to Monks, I can 
hardly forgive learned men, who have suffered them- 
selves to be carried away by hatred and prejudice so far 
as to apply to the ignorance of middle ages the epithet 
of monkish ignorance, as if the monks had been the 
cause of the ignorance which was occasioned by the in- 
vasion of Europe by barbarians. The monks were an 



252 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

exception to their age, and were the learned men of 
their days. When in the sixth, seventh and following 
centuries, hordes of barbarians devastated the old Roman 
Empire and anihilated arts^ sciences, ancient languages, 
books, monuments, every thing, the friends of order 
and learning had no alternative left but to be carried 
away by the torrent of confusion, the result of wars 
and anarchy, or to retire in deserts and solitudes, there 
to enjoy peace for prayer and study. As persecutions 
had been the cause of the multiplication of monks in 
Egypt and Eastern countries, endless disorder greatly 
contributed in Western Europe to the increase of monks. 
Hidden in deep forests, on the summit of mountains, or 
in lonely valleys, those good and holy men spent their 
time in a routine of prayers, work and study. They 
transcribed precious books which they saved from the 
clutches of vandals, and it was in their libraries that the 
works of ancient authors were found at the revival of let- 
ters. The use of the Latin language, in the liturgy of the 
church ha^also contributed to the preservation of that 
language. It is no wonder that monks^nd ecclesiastics 
became rich, influential and powerful. They were the 
only friends of learning and virtue. The poor people, 
oppressed by ignorant and haughty tyrants, had no ad- 
visors and protectors, excepting monks^and ecclesiastics, 
and it being then impossible to found hospitals, asylums, 
academies, or to raise work-houses and manufactures, 
churches and monasteries, where charity was concen- 
trated, naturally became the recipients of the liberal 
donations of a grateful people. The pomps of the 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 258 

christian worship and the decoration of churches have 
also contributed to keep up a taste for useful and liberal 
arts. Barbarians, who used grease and rank butter as 
a hair tonic, who dressed in the untanned skins of 
animals, had no taste for ornamentation, but the churches 
continued to be embellished with precious metals, with 
statues and paintings. Although the rules of propor- 
tion were almost forgotten, all was not lost. The solid 
structure of churches built in those days, and their lofty 
spires are a proof of genius ; their grand designs, not- 
withstanding their defects, the gothic ornaments, not- 
withstanding their oddities, had at least the good effect 
of keeping alive some knowledge of architecture, sculp- 
ture and painting. As to letters, he who has seen the 
polyglot Bible of Ximenes, or the stupendous works of 
Benedictines and other monks, needs no other proof to 
be convinced of the wickedness and folly of men, who 
wantonly accuse all the monks of sloth and- ignorance. 
We have, in our days, a number of religious men and 
women who devote themselves to the education of youth. 
It is true that we do not consider the popular system of 
schools as a model system. We believe that, to in- 
struct the mind without training the heart to piety, 
does not lead to virtue ; that to improve the heart, does 
not interfere with the improvement of the mind, and that 
education, to be perfect, must embrace the improvement 
of the whole soul, the intellect and the will, the heart 
and the mind. Americans of high standing, are not 
blind to the fundamental defect of our school system. 
Bishop Whitehouse of Illinois, for example, in a speech 
22 



254 CONV^ERSATIONS OF A 

in the Norwich Cathedral, England, in 1867, said that 
our popular education, unless largely supplemented, as 
it is, by religious efforts outlying and around it, could 
only create a nation of infidels, (cheers,) and added: 
" There is a testimony on this point to which I refer 
^- with shame. It is, notwithstanding the poor means 
" of their people, the true and honest stand on the sub- 
" ject of religious education, which is taken by the 
" Roman Catholic church. (Add to this, that notwith- 
" standing our poor means we forfeit our share of school 
" funds and are taxed to support secular schools, as the 
" Irish are taxed to support a church which they ab- 
" hor.) The Roman Catholic clergy, refusing all com- 
" promise, have steadily gone on all over the land, 
'^ building their schools and their colleges, and they 
" associate with them every thing likely to make them 
" not only permanent and valuable, but also attractive 
" to the young and rising generation ; thus fulfilling in 
" that way, on their side, the duty they ow^e to their 
" principles, to the church of which they are members 
" and the claims of God upon them. And on the other 
" hand it is to be remarked, w^hat has been the effect of 
" the existence of these institutions amongst the popula- 
" tion around them and in a country like America ? 
" Have they been repelled or received ? Unfortunately 
" we have had to mourn over the fact that Ave cannot 
"keep our sons and daughters out of these institutions, 
" and wherever good and sound education is wanted, 
"our people send their children there without re- 
"garding its connection with the peculiar institution 



CATIIOIJC ?,iISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS- 255 

" which characterizes that cluirch. (If catholics give a 
good and sound education. Bishop Whitehouse need 
not mourn.) " Our national schools are all secular, and 
'^ thus we are compelled to feel, to our own disadvant- 
^' age, that education to be right must be education of 
" the church." (Reported by the Guardian, and copied 
by Chicago Times, Nov. 25th, 1867.) 

The forced praises of our catholic schools, by the 
protestant Bishop of Illinois and your own observations 
must convince your mind that we are not far behind 
the age in the United States. With regard to other lands 
you may consult impartial statistics, and you will find 
to your sui'iDrise, that Rome has more public schools, 
in proportion to its population than Boston, and that 
there are more Irish people in Ireland, who can read 
and write than there are English in Great Britain, who 
know their letters. Why then the hue and cry against 
Irish people '? The Celtic race is as noble a race as any 
in the world. The men are strong and the women well 
formed and healthy, because they are pure. Driven 
away from their homes by brutal oppressors, they are 
willing to earn a living at the sweat of their brow. It 
is a credit to the Irish race and a wonder that there 
are so few of them in our prisons. In estimating the 
honesty of a people one must take into account the 
number and violence of temptations. A man who has 
partaken of a bounteous meal, is not apt to steal a loaf 
of bread, but he, who is hungry may covet it and stea^ 
it. The true honest man is he wlio works hard for his 
daily bread. On thnt i^i inr'ir/le all honor is due to the 



256 CONVEi:SATiONS OF A 

Celtic race. Whilst intelligent infidels become horse 
thieves, counterfeiters, burglars, robbers and usurers, 
the Irish build our railroads, dig our canals, and accept 
of any work, rather than to steal. But they are igno- 
rant ! I^ot at present. As to old people they have an 
excuse in their favor. During hundred years, from 
1695 to 1782, school masters were transported, and also 
printers and book-sellers. '- My dear old father, (says 
'^ Geraldine) who is still alive and fast approaching his 
" ninety-ninth year, boasts to this day of having got 
" his learning as he got his whiskey, both illegally. Ca- 
" tholics beyond the age of fifty, (now eithty-five,) read 
" and write illegally ; they got their learning in spite of 
'^ the laws at home, or they smuggled it from the con- 
'' tinent. But never shall it be forgotten, to the glory 
" of Ireland it is recorded, that in the cause of litera- 
'• ture and science, as in the more holy cause of religion, 
" she has suffered persecution ; and can her sons forget 
" that there was a time v/hen the youth of other coun- 
''- tries flocked to her renowned seminaries and colleges ! 
(Geraldine, vol. ii, p. 81.) Ireland can make up a 
long list of generals, statesmen, poets and orators of a 
superior order, and she can novf count a number of 
eminent men of Irish origin in the old and in the new 
world. For centuries it has been the aim of England to 
brutalize and debase the Irish race, and to exterminate 
it and kill it as Cain killed Abel, but England has failed. 
The confiscations of Elizabeth, the butcheries of Crom- 
well, the conquest of William, and the penal enact- 
ments of the Georges, each and all have miserably fail- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 257 

ed in effecting J^lieir purposes. The Irish are alive in 
spite of the edicts of English Pharaohs. They will have 
their Moses : the time will come when their oppressors 
will have to respect and treat their fellow citizens as 
their equals, or the Saxon glutton will have to find in 
some other part of the world a pasture for his sheep 
and bullocks. Let me further remark that if an Irish 
girl is weak enough or an Irishman ambitious enough 
to purchase esteem at the cost of religion, all on a sud- 
den Pat becomes a gentleman and Bridget a lady. Is 
not that a sign that the main cause of anti-Irish pre- 
judices is the strong attachment and sublime devoted- 
ness of the Irish people to the religion of St. Patrick ? 
I wish to have justice done to Ireland, but should I fail 
to remove your false opinion, remember that the church 
is Universal or catholic. If you have any more objec- 
tions, although it is very late, I will hold out until your 
ammunition is exhausted. 

Deist C. — My ammunition is not quite exhausted. 
The extraordinary power of your Popes, your anti- 
social tenets with regard to heretics, the awful disclo- 
sures about your convents and nunneries, the secret oath 
of Jesuits, are objections which have enough of weight 
to deter an honest man from joining your church. 

Missionarij. — You now assail me with grape shot. As 
our aim is to arrive at the knowledge of truth, I beg 
from you to avoid that mode of warfare, and to state 
each article separately. To begin with the first article, 
tell me what do you mean by the extraordinary power 
of our Popes ? 
22* 



258 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Deist C. — I mean that if your Popes should command 
you to overturn our government, and tell you that it is 
the will of God to have it new modeled, you would be 
bound to obey his orders. 

Missionary. — Instead of answering myself, let me 
read for you the plain and clear answer which the Rt. 
Rev. England, Bishop of Charleston, S. C, has given 
to this objection, as far back as !I826, in the Hall of the 
House of Representatives at Washington. His dis- 
course was published at the request of twenty-one 
members who were present at its delivery. The Bishop 
said : " A political difficulty has been sometimes raised 
"here. If this infallible tribunal which you profess 
" yourselves bound to obey, should command you to 
" overturn our government, and tell you that it is the 
" will of God to have it new modeled will you *be 
" bound to obey it ? And how then can we consider 
" those men as good citizens who profess to owe obe- 
'• dience to a foreign authority which has excommuni- 
" cated and deposed sovereigns, and which has absolved 
'^ subjects and citizens from their bond of allegiance f 

" Our answer to this is extremely simple and very 
■" plain : it is that we w^ould not be bound to obey it, 
^' that we recognize no such authority. I would not 
" allow to the Pope or to any Bishop of our church, 
" outside this Union, the smallest interference with the 
" humblest vote at the most insignificant balloting box. 
" He has no right to such interference. You must, 
" from the view I have taken, see the plain distinction 
"between spiritual authority, and a right to interfere 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 259^ 

'* in the regulation of human government or civil con- 
" cerns. You have in your constitution wisely kept 
'' them distinct and separate. It will be wisdom 
" and prudence and safety to continue the separation. 
'• Your constitution says : that Congress shall have 
•• no power to restrict the free exercise of religion. 
'• Suppose your dignified body to-morrow attempt- 
" ed to restrict me in the exercise of that right, 
'•though the law, as it would be called, should pass 
"''your two houses and obtain the signature of the 
"President, I would not obey it because it would 
" be no law, it would be an usurpation ; for you can- 
" not make a law in violation of your constitution ; 
'' you have no power in such case. So, if that tribu- 
^- nal which is established by the Creator to testify to 
'' me what he has revealed, and to make the necessary 
'- regulations of discipline for the government of the 
"^church, shall presume to go beyond that boundary 
'' which circumscribes its power, its acts are invalid, 
" my rights are not to be destroyed by its usurpation, 
'- and there is no principle of my creed which prevents 
•• my using my natural right of proper resistance to 
'- any tyranical usurpation. You have no power to in- 
" terfere with my religious rights ; the tribunal of the 
'* church has no right to interfere with my civil rights. 
" It is a duty which every good man ought to discharge 
"'for his own and for the public benefit, to resist any 
" encroachment upon either. We do not believe that 
''God gave to the church any power to interfere 



^60 CONVERSATION'S OF A 

" with our civil rights or our civil concerns. Christ 
" our Lord refused to interfere in the division of the 
" inheritance between two brothers, one of whom re- 
" quested that interference. The civil tribunals of Ju- 
'' dea were vested with sufficient authority for that 
'^ purpose, and he did not transfer it to his apostles. It 
^' must hence be aj^parent that any idea of the Roman 
'^ Catholics of this republic being in any way under the 
" influence of any foreign ecclesiastical power or indeed 
" of any chm'ch authority in the exercise of their civil 
'' rights, is a serious mistake. There is no class of our 
" fellow citizens more free to think, and to act for them- 
^' selves on the subject of om- rights than we are, and I 
" believe there is not any portion of the American 
" family more jealous of foreign influence or more ready 
" to resist it. We have brethren of our church in every 
" part of the globe, under every form of government ; 
"- this is a subject upon which each of us is free to act 
" as he thinks proper. We know of no tribunal in our 
"church which can interfere in our proceedings as 
" citizens. Our ecclesiastical authority existed before 
" our constitution, is not affected by it ; there is not in 
^^ the world a constitution which it does not jDrecede, 
" with which it could not coexist ; it has seen nations 
" perish, dynasties decay, empires prostrate ; it has co- 
" existed with all, it has survived them all, it is not de- 
" pendent upon any one of them, they may still 
^' change, and it will still continue." 

Deist C. — That answer is very good, but we can 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 261 

hardly trust your word for your principle that " no fiiith 
is to be kept with heretics" is enougli to nullify all your 
pledges and boasts of loyalty and liberality. 

Blissionarij . — The infamous imputation that catholics 
held or hold " that it is lawful to break faith with here- 
tics " only shows the wrecklessness of our enemies. 
" Far from being an article of the catholic faith, (an- 
'^ swered the doctors of the university of Alcola to the 
'^queries of Mr. Pitt, in 1785) it is so utterly repugnant 
" to its tenets that she could not have believed it possi- 
^' ble that there should exist any person who would dare 
" to impute to catholics anything so iniquitous^ had she 
" not learned from the sacred scriptures that the same 
'^ Pharisees who heard our Lord openly commanding to 
"give to Ciesar the things that are Cesar's, after- 
" ward led this very crime to his charge ; we have found 
" this man perverting our nation and forbidding tribute 
"to CaBsar. The devil who moved their tongue to 
" utter such falsehoods, has never desisted from perver- 
" ting others in the same manner." 

I might quote the authentic declarations of the catho- 
lic universities of Paris, Louvain, Valladolid, Douay 
Salamanca, and the Brief which Pope Pius VI, ad- 
dressed to the Bishops of Ireland in 1791, to deiBne the 
true catholic doctrine and remove every ground of pre- 
judice, but it is unnecessary, for the world knows that 
England after a long, slow and full inquiry has been 
forced by evidence to acquit catholics and repeal her 
penal laws. After a verdict, so reluctantly given, he 



262 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

who is more stubborn than an Englishman and renews 
the old slanders must be destitute of honesty and com- 
mon sense. 

Deist C. — You deny every thing : you will no doubt 
deny the immoral practices which are said to be common 
in nunneries and convents; but I believe the proverb : 
where there is smoke, there is fire. 

Missionary. — The proverb has its exceptions. Our 
Saviour has been traduced by hypocritical Pharisees and 
carnal Jews. There was enough of smoke but no fire. 
We have a number of Pharisees in our day, who dread 
not to lie and calumniate to gratify their selfishness and 
malignity. The notorious Brownlee, who sought the in- 
timacy of a Mrs. Patridge to form a league with her and 
Mary Monk, two prostitutes, to injure our catholic insti- 
tutions, belonged to that set of Pharisaical fanatics. ^'I 
" have not the least fear of pledging myself, (wrote Dr 
^' M'Clelland, in tlie Journal of Commerce, October 
" 1840,) that I could in ten days obtain five hundred 
" letters from private correspondents (who would be per- 
" fectly willing to have their names published,) declar- 
'' ing that they would believe Dr. Bro^vhlee's declara- 
'^ tions under no circumstances whatever." Mind that 
it is a fellow preacher who thus denies the veracity of 
the impudent author of '^ Aivful Disclosures'' Honest 
protestants are ashamed and rebuke those vile impos- 
tures. In 1854 a similar document appeared (* 'My sto- 
ries of a Convent," by a noted Methodist preacher, 
Philadelphia, T. B. Peterson.) the New York Inde- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 263 

pendent, (Presbyterian) reviewed it as follows : ^' A 
" miserable pamphlet, on miserable paper, containing a 
"miserable story, miserably conceived, and miserably 
" told ; and yet without the cleverness of fiction, fitted 
" only to suggest evil, to do mischief, whose end it is 
" to be burned." Calumnies will never cease, but thanks 
be to God, we have now the means to counteract the 
evil and give publicity to truth. 

Deist C. — It is 2)ossible that individuals may lie and 
misrepresent your church ; but when friends and foes 
agree, there can be no misrepresentation. The guilt of 
Jesuits has not been exaggerated. All protestants re- 
present the Jesuits as a dangerous body, bound together 
by a secret oath, whose aim is to render themselves 
masters of the vforld, who lengthen the creed and 
shorten the decalogue, who teach that the end justifies 
the means, whose morality is as elastic as india-rubber. 
Catholic Princes, who have banished them from their 
dominions, have viewed them in the same light, and 
one of your Popes, in suppressing their order, has sanc- 
tioned the general opinion of the civilized world. 
Their restoration only proves that your Popes are Jes^ 
uits who approve or condemn, as it suits^ their interest 
and policy. 

Missionary. — If the Jesuits were half as dangerous 
and wicked as represented by their enemies, the ap- 
probation of their order by our church would almost 
justify your unbelief, but instead of being what they 
are represented by protestants and infidels, the Jes- 
uits are truly the followers of Jesus Christ crucified. I 



264 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

say with Montalembert, a distinguished Peer of France, 
" when looking beyond the surface of things, I have 
" seen in the world and in history, that in every coun- 
'• try, from Paraguay to Siberia, every persecutor of the 
" church, from the Marquis Pombal to the Emperor of 
" Russia, all degrees of errors from atheism to Jansen- 
" ism, v/ere arrayed against the Jesuits, in a universal 
"conspiracy of proscription, when in the religious 
" struggles of our day, I have beheld the same symp- 
'- toms, though on a smaller scale, oh ! then I have said 
'' within myself, there must be in these men something 
" holy and mysterious, which explains the motives to 
'' the marvelous union of enemities so different ; there 
'^must be in this instinct of hatred, ever so manifest, 
'' something which indicates that it is thus they reach 
^Hhe very heart of the church. Behold, then, the rea- 
" son of my becoming an advocate and admirer of the 
" Jesuits, after having been their enemy. And thanks 
'' to heaven, in this step I have not been alone." (Speecli 
of Count Montalembert in the Chamber of Peers, May 
8th, 1844.) 

The Jesuit's secret oath, and secretct-monita, are of a 
piece with other forgeries of the enemies of the church, 
with the pretended Papal anathemas of Tristram Shandy, 
y>^i\hHoganscursejwii\\t\\Q pretended book: Tax of 
the sacred Roman Chancery ; and other fiaudulent evi- 
dences, which are exploded by every scholar and honest 
man ; but ignorant sectarians consider nothing too bad 
to be credited or circulated when it concerns the Pope, 
the Jesuits and the •• Romish Church." The channel-" 



CATHOLIC 3IISSI0NARY WITH A3IERICANS. 265 

of history have been corrupted, and the press perverted 
to heap upon our church abuse and obloquy, so that it 
now takes an uncommon degree of mstruction and 
courage to rise above party spirit and prejudice. 

The Jesuits know no other oath than this : Are you 
ready to rent)unce tlie world, all possession, and all hope 
of temjDoral goods ? Are you ready, if necessary, to beg 
your bread from door to door for the love of Jesus 
Christ '? Yes, answers the candidate. 

'' Are you prepared to live in any country in the 
world, and in any employment whatsoever, in which 
your Superiors may judge you would be most useful, 
for the greater glory of God, and the salvation of 
souls ? Yes. 

" Are you resolved to obey your superiors, who hold 
in your regard the place of God, in all things, except 
what your conscience tells you would be sinful 'f Yes. 

" Do you feel yourself generously determined to re- 
ject with horror, and without exception, all that men 
enslaved by worldly prejudices love and embrace 1 And 
do you wish to accept and desire, with all your power, 
what Jesus Christ loved and embraced ? Yes. 

" Do you consent to wear that habit of ignominy 
which He wore ? Suffer like Him through the love 
and respect for Him, opprobrium, false testimony and 
injuries without, however, giving any occasion to 
them? Yes. (Constitution of St. Ignatius, p. 44.) 

Such is the " secret oath" of the Jesuit. Such his 
vow. And truly, I dare exclaim with " The Edin- 
burgh Review," never did human lips pronounce a 
23 



266 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

VOW more religiously observed, or pregnant with re- 
sults more momentous ! This and this only is the mys- 
terious spring which from its very commencement, 
has sent forth such truly Apostolic men, to the most 
distant — yes, to the most inaccessible parts of the 
world ; this is the secret spring why missions were es- 
tablished in Asia and Africa, in North and South Amer- 
ica ; this is the secret spring that leads us to under- 
stand why Jesuits could encounter all dangers, and why 
many died martyrs of their zeal. 

Sublime vow ! To renounce everything for the 
greater glory of God and the salvation of souls ! It is 
no wonder that they have against them the world and 
the devil. The disciple, said Jesus Christ, is not bet- 
ter than the master — if they have persecuted Me, they 
will persecute you. The disciples of a Luther and a 
Voltaire may criticise the casuistry of Jesuits ! Their 
enemies may seek in the nature of their doctrines and 
in the excess of their ambition the cause of the hatred 
of Protestants to their order, and the reason of their 
expulsion from Catholic kingdoms, and of their sup- 
pression by Clement XIV ; but impartial history will, 
in time, settle the fact that the w^onderful exertions of 
Jesuits to check irreligion, have been the true cause of 
the hatred of a Calvin and a Voltaire ; that their un- 
relenting zeal against the errors of Jansenists and the 
scandals of worldly ecclesiastics have been the true 
cause of the witty satires and charming obloquies of 
the learned inmates of Port Royal, and of several mem- 
bers of the clergy ; that their noble firmness in re- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 267 

proving adulterous kings, as did a Father Sacci and a 
Father Bourdaloue has been the true cause of the hatred 
of a Charles III of Spain, of a Louis XIV of France, 
of a Madame de Pompadour and other Herodiases ; 
with regard to their suppression by Clement XIV, that 
proceeding does not imply that the society was guilty. 
It was a question of expediency, says Dr. BroAvnson, 
of which the Pope was the legitimate judge. And it 
does not " become us to accuse his judgment. We 
honor his memory, and we honor also the society." 
(Brownson's Review, July 1853, p. 416.) (i) 

The hatred of the enemies of Jesuits is too savage, 
to be from God. Hear what Calvin said : " The Jes- 
uits who are our greatest enemies, must either be killed, 
or, if it cannot conveniently be done, at least be banished, 
or at least be destroyed, by heaping lies and calumnies 
upon them. (Maur, Schenkl, Inst. Juris. Eccl. Landish, 
1830, t. i, p. 500, quoted by Alzog. hist. univ. de 
I'Eglise, t. iii, p. 364.) Diderot was for strangling the 
last Jesuit with the bov/els of the last Jansenist. (Cor- 
respondence Generale, t. 58, p. 109.) We find the 
same spirit, the same infernal hatred in reviews, encyc- 
lopedias, pulpit and stump harangues. It is the hatred 
of the devil against God. Men of good will appreciate 
the heroical labors and superhuman virtues of the sons 
of Loyola. I love to read the candid praises awarded 



(1.) We do not like, (says Dr. Brownson,) Cretineau Joly's worK, for it 
eacriflccs Clemeut XIV., to save the society of Jesus. This work, (of Au- 
gustin Theiner,) sacrifices the society to save the Pope, or rather the 
Crowns of the Bourbon family. We think it better if a sacrifice must be 
made to sacrifice the Crown and save both the Pope and the society. (lb.) 



268 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

to Jesuits by learned Americans, as for example, the 
following, by Charles Rau^ of New York City, who 
says : " I cannot conclude these introductory remarks, 
" without saying a few words in favor of the Jesuits'. 
" Whatever we think, as protestants, of the tendencies 
" of that order, we cannot but admit that those of its 
" members who came as missionaries to America, de- 
" serve great credit for their zeal in propagating a 
^'knowledge of the countries and nations they visited 
"in the new w^orld. To the student of American 
" ethnology particularly, the numerous writings of the 
" Jesuit fathers are of inestimable value, forming, as it 
" were, the very foundations upon which almost all sub 
" sequent researches in that interesting- field of inquiry 
" are based." 

" The missionaries and discoverers whom the order 
" of the Jesuits sent forth, were for the most part, not 
''only possessed of the courage of martyrs, and of 
" statesmanlike qualities, but likewise of great knowl- 
" edge and learning. They were enthusiastic travellers, 
" naturalists and geographers ; they —were the best 
" mathematicians and astronomers of their time. They 
" have been the first to give us faithful and circumstan- 
" tial accounts of the new countries and nations they 
" visited. There are few districts in the interior of 
" America concerning which the Jesuits have not sup- 
" plied us with the oldest and best works, and we can 
" scarcely attempt the study of any American language 
" without meeting with a grammar composed by a Jes- 
" uit. In addition to their chapels and colleges in the 



CATilOLIO MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 269 

^'wilderness, the Jesuits, likewise erected observatories, 
' and there are few rivers, lakes and mountains in the 
'' interior which they have not been the first to draw 
'' upon our maps." 

" With this well deserved eulogy, which is quoted 
"from Mr. J. G. Kohl's recent work on the discovery 
*' of America, I leave to Father B^ogert himself the 
'' task of relating his experience among the natives of 
"Lower California." (Smithsonian Report, 1863, p. 
357.) 

JDeist C. — I thank you sir, for your instructive con- 
versation. I assure you that I will seriously reflect up- 
on the answers which you have given me, and study 
in earnest the catholic religion. We parted good 
friends. 

Article 6. Secret Societies. 

I will end this long chapter, with a conversation on 
the subject of secret societies. All the members of 
secret societies are not avowed deists, but the tendency 
of those societies is unbelief, indifferentism and irrelig- 
ion. God must be worshiped in spirit and in truth, 
but men are not pure spirits : The soul is united to a 
body. Hence our natural inclination for outward cere- 
monies, processions, festivals, decorations and signs ; 
hence the substitution, by people who are alienated from 
the spirit of Christianity, of human institutions to the 
ordinances of God ; hence the prevalency of Odd Fel- 
lows, Good Templars, Masons and other societies, in 
States where religion has no pomp and almost no life. 

A young man, highly gifted by nature with the 
23* 



270 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

finest qualities of body and soul, a graduate at the 
highest schools, rich and yet of steady habits, had 
won the heart of a protestant young lady. He de- 
sired to be married according to the rules of the catho- 
lic church to please the old folks, (his parents,) who 
were sound catholics ; but he was too well instructed 
not to know that there were impediments to his mar- 
riage. He came alone to state his case and have a con- 
fidential talk with me. Sir, said he, I desire to be mar- 
ried and my parents will take it hard, if I do not com- 
ply with the rules of the church, but I fear, that I can- 
not do it. 

Missionary. — I have heard something about your in- 
tended marriage ; I am glad to see you, for you can 
give me more correct information than any body else. 
What is the difficulty. 

Freemason. — The whole difticulty is that I have made 
up my mind to marry a protestant young lady, and that I 
have joined the society of Freemasons. How will that go ? 

Missionary. — Not very w^ell sir ; mixed marriages are 
very seldom happy. There are so many^Buch marriages 
that prove to be a curse, and so many children deprived 
in consequence, of religious instruction that it is our 
duty to prevent them, if possible. The church hates 
and forbids them ; but if they cannot be prevented, we 
have to inquire if the protestant party has been bap- 
tized, (for there are some protestants who are not chris- 
tians for want of baptism,) and if the protestant party 
is willing to have all the children baptized and raised in 
the catholic church. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 271 

Freemason. — There will be no trouble on that sub- 
ject, for Mrs. X. has been baptized in the Episcopal 
Church, and she is well inclined towards 'the Catholic 
religion. She will not refuse to subscribe to your con- 
ditions. 

Missionary. — There remains the second difficulty. It 
is in your power to make it all right by giving up your 
connection with secret societies, by going to your du- 
ties and doing penance as a faithful child of the church. 
Your good parents have no doubt told you that you 
were wrong in preferring secret societies to the great 
society established by Jesus Christ for the salvation of 
the world. 

Freemason. — My parents are indeed as much opposed 
to secret societies as you can be, but it is all prejudice. 
I know from experience that secret societies are useful 
or at least harmless. 

Missionary. — Be candid with me. Let us inquire in- 
to the good and evil of secret societies. If I convince 
you that the amount of good is greatly exaggerated, 
and the amount of evil tmly serious and alarming, you 
will, perhaps, acknowledge that the prejudice is on 
your side. 

Freemason. — The Masonic Fraternity would not have 
stood for thousands of years if it upheld anything radi- 
cally wrong. It is a society older than the church. 
When the great temple of Salomon was erected, it was 
already flourishing, and it now extends its ramifications 
all over the world. 

Missionary. — I have read with attention and care the 



272 COMYERSATIOXS OF A 

different accounts given by learned men of the origin 
of Masonry, but only find opinions and conjectures. It 
may be that some secret societies of the kind were or- 
ganized at a very remote period. The Pagans initi- 
ated in the mysteries of Eleusis, (not very creditable to 
wise men,) formed a secret society: The Manicheans, 
still worse and more dangerous, were also a secret so- 
ciety. The Templars, who, after rendering great ser- 
vices to the church, fell into disrepute, and perhaps 
dissoluteness, and whose order was abrogated and sup- 
pressed, continued, no doubt, to exist as a secret so- 
ciety. There has always been and always will be a 
holy society of the friends of God who walk in open 
daylight, and side by side, an ungodly society of the 
enemies of God, who walk and work in secret and 
darkness, because their chief leader is the Prince of 
Darkness. The supposed antiquity and great number 
and power of Masons is not a proof that the society 
produces good fruits. Does it produce good or bad 
fruits ^ That is the question. 

Freemason. — It produces the best of fruits. It is a 
benevolent society. We help and assist each other. 
Union is strength. Is a member disabled by sickness 
or prostrated by a reverse of fortune, his fellow mem- 
bers fly to his rescue ; is he in distress or misery, he 
has only to make himself known, and he is relieved at 
once. Is a mjmber snatched away by death, his widow 
and children are cared for. What better fruits can you 
wish for ? 

Missionarij. — Charity, pure and true, must be univer- 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS. 273 

sal. It must extend to all men, initiated or not initiated, 
because all men are created to the im^ge of God, Every 
body who is in distress has a right to be relieved. See 
the catholic church ! how more beautiful and heroical are 
her charities ! The hungry is fed, the thirsty has drink 
given him, the naked is clothed, the prisoner is visited, 
the slave is redeemed, because what is done to the poor 
is done to Jesus Christ ; her missionaries go to christian- 
ize and civilize barbarians and savages ; her sisters of 
charity, in hospitals, treat all sick people without excep- 
tion, as they would treat a brother ; orphans have asy- 
lumSj repentant sinners, houses of refuge, poor children^ 
gratuitous schools. He must be blind who does not 
see that all the sham-charities of philanthropists are as 
nothing when compared to the genuine and divine 
charity of the church. If you want to secure an in- 
come to relations or friends, there is no need of secret 
societies for that purpose, for we have every where Life 
Insurance Companies, and Accident Companies, with 
ample capital and reasonable rates of premiums. Now, 
what other advantage do you find in secret societies. 

Freemason. — Another great advantage is to have 
friendly meetings of brethren who enjoy themselves in 
their lodges without being disturbed by intruders. It 
is surely better to spend a few hours in social entertain- 
ments, than to mix with the crowd in saloons and grog 
shops. 

Missionary. — I hate saloons and grog-shops. They 
are the ruin of young men and families ; but it is evi- 
dent that a man can avoid those places, without being 



274 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

a Mason. I do not object to clubs of select friends 
who meet for social enjoyment. A good porter with 
or without a sword, may keep out intruders, but grant- 
ing that masonic banquets are a pleasant thing and in 
that respect harmless — what other great good do you 
find in masonry. 

Freemason, — It is a capital thing for a man of busi- 
ness. Men who appear outwardly rich and tiiist- worthy 
are often cheats and bankrupts. The true standing of 
men is best ascertained in secret societies. It is almost 
a necessity to be affiliated to such societies in order to 
succeed in business, for a business man must know the 
true standing of his debtors and customers. 

Missionary, — ^A man who is not ashamed to deceive 
his fellow-men, will, I fear, entertain very little scruple 
to deceive his fellow-masons ; for initiation and oaths do 
not impart justice and grace ; but were you to gain the 
whole w^orld, what will it avail you, says our Lord, if 
you lose your soul ? 

Freemason. — If I lose my soul ! I do not see w^hy a 
man would lose his soul by associating with the most 
respectable men of the land, for none are admitted as 
members except good and honest men, who are known 
and tried before they are initiated. To be a free and 
accepted Mason, and in fact a member of any well or- 
ganized secret society, is an evidence of a good moral 
character that raises a man above the level of common 
people. It gives him, at once, an honorable stand and 
position in society, and this is an advantage too pre- 
cious and too real to be denied. 



CATHOLIC MISSIOKARY WITH AMERICANS. 275 

Missionary. — Infidels who desi^ise the humble faithful 
as common people and simpletons, will exclaim one 
day : We fools ! What hath pride profited us ? 
(Wisdom V. 8.) Freemasons are apt, like Infidels, 
to think themselves wiser and more honorable than the 
crowd who acknowledge no worshipful Master, except 
the Supreme Being. They may pride themselves with 
the praises and good testimony of the Fraternity, but 
what is the testimony of all worldly-wise, compared to 
the testimony of the church. The church has con- 
demned them, excommunicated them and branded 
them as her enemies. We may be called fools, for 
our Saviour himself has been treated as a fool and a 
Barrabas has been preferred to Him. He has been 
crucified, but He is risen from the dead and will live 
for ever, and there shall be no end to His Kingdom. 
All other societies will have an end and pass away. 
The world will pass away, but the Word of God will 
not pass away. 

Freemason. — You are very hard against Freemasons. 
There are Priests and Bishops who entertain better 
views. Some of them even are members of our Fra- 
ternity. We have also a great many Protestant Min- 
isters initiated. Protestants are more liberal, and, I 
think, wiser than the old Popes, who dread us. They 
are not afraid of secret societies, and wisely avoid to 
interfere with them. 

Missionary. — You know that there has been a Judas, 
among the twelve apostles, who sold his master for 
thirty pieces of silver. It is no wonder if there is now 



276 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

one Judas, even out of eveiy twelve. The opinion oT 
protestants is of very little value, for they are on the 
wrong track. We cannot expect figs from thorns. It is 
seldom that pirates attack pirates. The evils of secret 
societies are however such that even some protestants 
reprobate them. For example, at a congregationalist 
meeting held at Ottawa, (Illinois,) May 28th, 1866, 
Dr. Edward Beecher, brother of Henry Ward Beecher, 
read a report on the subject of secret societies, in which 
he discussed at considerable length the subject, and at 
the close of the report read a series of resolutions 
which involved the positions advocated. The resolu- 
tions denounced especially the secret society of Free- 
masons, and recommended that temperance and other 
associations for benevolent and moral purposes, should 
discard the element of secrecy, and the resolutions were 
adopted. 

Freemason. — What are then, the great evils of secret 
societies % I have been a member of the Masonic order 
for a number of years, and stand pretty high in the 
scale of degrees, and I assure you that not a word is 
spoken derogatory to religion, nor anything said or 
done against public order and morals. The affiur of 
religion is left to the conscience of each member. 

Missionary, — I will say nothing of the political influ- 
ence of Masonry, nor of injustices which are apt to be 
committed when a jury of Masons has to decide a case 
between a brother Mason and a stranger, (I could re- 
late a few instances, but it would not be prudent,) I 
will not examine, if political lionesty and common jus^ 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 277 

tice are or iive not endangered by secret societies ; I 
confine myself to the moral and religious evils of such 
societies. I do not wonder that open hatred and fanati- 
cal rancor do not manifest themselves in our free re- 
public, even in jprivate lodges, for we are ruled by pub- 
lic opinion, and public opinion is not for irreligion and 
fanaticism on this side of the ocean ; but it is not the 
case in other parts of the world. Look, for example, at 
the famous, or rather infamous Garibaldi, who is dei- 
fied and called the Son of God by his blind admirers 
He is the head and leader of rank infidels, and nothing 
has made him more conspicuous than his intense enmi- 
ty to the church and to the Vicar of Jesus Christ. His 
religion and the religion of his associates is, as they 
say, the religion of science, of reason and of genius, 
precisely the irreligion of Voltaire. Well was he de- 
scribed by the Frenchman, who said : that he has the 
heart ot a lion and the head of an ass. The church 
has not condemned secret societies, merely because they 
are secret, for secrecy is sometimes useful and necessary ; 
but because they are in some places, directly, and every 
where, indirectly hostile to governments and to the 
church, because they require a rash and illegal oath ; 
because they unjustly assume the right to punish, even 
with death, traitors who betray their secret, because 
they appoint, without a shadow of authority, chaplains 
and officers to perform ex-officio religious ceremonies 
which the ministers of God alone have a right to per- 
form. Here are four specific charges which I will ex- 
plain in a few words : 
24 



278 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

1st. You think it is all right in the United States, 
because every member is at liberty to choose his relig- 
ion. As citizens of the same republic, we must live at 
peace with our neighbors, as members of the human 
family, we must love all men, without exception, but at 
the same time we must hate error and sin ; but he who 
chooses for his bosom friends, and binds himself by 
oath, to an intimate friendship and brotherhood with 
Heretics, Jews, Mohammedans, Heathens, Deists and 
Atheists, (^•) does not show much hatred to error and 
sin, but rather shows himself indifferent to all religions. 

2d. For a lawful oath there must be necessity and 
justice. There are two powers who can authorize the 
administration of an oath, the civil and spiritual pow- 
ers. It is therefore unlawful for secret societies to ad- 
minister oaths to their members. Besides, he who 
swears, knows absolutely nothing of the real and ulti- 
mate object of secret societies, an apprentice being as 
much in the dark with regard to the secrets of the 
Grand Master, as a slave with regard to the secrets of 
his master. A Freemason is therefore a mere instru- 
ment and a tool, and ceases to be free, from the mo- 
ment he swears a kind of allegiance to a worshipful 
Master, who is perhaps a shrewd man whose God is 
self. 

Freemason. — The object of Masonry is known to its 
members. It is the promotion of liberty and the liap- 

(1.) The King of Prussia, wanted to exclude Jews from his lodges, and 
some Parisian lodges, to exclude atheists ; but Jews and atheists retain their 
standing and grades in the fraternity. Every bodv who reads newspapers, 
may have noticed those facts. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 279 

piness of mankind. Its officers are trustworthy, for 
none are raised from one degree to another without 
deserving promotion. 

Missionarij. — Beautiful theories and fascinating illu- 
sions ! I doubt not that there are members who exert 
themselves a great deal and flatter themselves that they 
advance towards freedom and happiness, when, in reality, 
they retrograde. It reminds me of the adventure of 
Perry, who retrograded in spite of good intentions. 
He, Avith a number of Esquimaux, had started for the 
North Pole. Dogs and sledges were driven forward. 
When, however, the sun broke through the mist, so 
that the latitude could be taken, it was ascertained 
that the expedition had unwittingly been carried back- 
ward several degrees. A floating field of ice, drifting 
in a southerly current, was the surface on which they 
seemed to advance. The heads and leaders of secret 
societies, the Grand Orient, the Omnipotent who have 
reached the thirty-third degree are powerful enough 
to form, like God, undercurrents to promote their de- 
signs ; but alas ! they are not, like God, perfect and 
infallible ! 

3d. It is wiK)ngfor Masons to despatch traitors with 
arsenic or a dagger, without trial, without the sanction 
of magistrates, and in a manner infinitely worse than 
Lynch Laiv, for the execution of the victims of Lynch 
Law, is at least a public act, but the execution of a ma- 
sonic traitor is nothing more or less than assassination. 
It is of no use to pretend that traitors have consented 
to their horrible death, by taking the Masonic oatli. That 



280 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

is no excuse, for a man is not at liberty to pledge his 
life, nor a man as man, at liberty, under any circum- 
stances, to murder his fellow-man. Life is sacred. God 
alone who gave it, has a right to end it. 

Freemason. — We have not at present any such ob- 
jectionable provisions in our Lodges, that is all changed. 
Missionary. — I am glad to hear it. It is a great im- 
provement. All the signs and insignia of masonry are 
certainly not worth the life of a man. It may be 
troublesome to alter them, but they are not of divine 
institution and there is no sacrilege in changing the 
whole system : What is really a sacrilegious act, and 
a mimicry of holy functions, is, for men who are not 
the ministers of God, to bless corner stones, oil, salt 
and cement, to bury the dead and perform religious 
ceremonies without a divine mission or lawful ordina 
tion. Chaplains and deacons, made by men, ceremo- 
nies ordained by men, rituals compiled by men, withou" 
authority from God, and designedly to set at naught 
the church of God, its ritual and ceremonies are visible 
proofs of a shocking rebellion against spiritual authorityt 
It was the sin of Core, Dathan and Abiron who have 
been swallowed up by the earth for their audacious im- 
piety. And these are the men who laugh at our church 
vestiments, and decorations of churches, the very pious 
masons who attach the greatest importance to the mi- 
nute decoration of their lodges, to the number of star^ 
and candles, to the color of the tapestry and to the 
form and size of the apron and scarf ! 

I have said enough to justify the condemnation of 



CATHOLIC MISSTONAKY WITH AMERICANS. 281 

secret societies by the church, and I beg from you, as 
a well educated young man and a catholic, to withdraw 
from the society of misguided men who will perhaps 
be excused before God, when you will be condemned. 
We are in a free land, and ought to act as free men, 
without fear. It is not so much for the sake of your 
good parents, that I entreat you to do right, than for 
your own sake. Do it, to obtain God's blessings in this 
world, and to save your immortal soul. 

The young man went away sorrowful, as the young 

man 'of the gospel who had inquired into the way of 
perfection. He heeded not my words, and soon con- 
tracted marriage before a justice of the peace. How 
tr.ue, alas ! that members of secret societies are lost 
to religion ! May the prayers of his good parents 
obtain his conversion. 

In conclusion, I will observe, with Dr. Milner, (End 
of controversy, Letter 50,) that we have not a met- 
aphysical evidence or a mathematical certainty of the 
truth of Christianity in general, but we have a 
moral evidence of the first quality. With all the mir- 
acles and the other arguments by which Christ and His 
Apostles proved this divine system, it was still a stumb- 
ling block to the Jeivs, and folly to the Gentiles, (1 Cor. 
i, 23.) In short, there is light enough in it to guide 
the sincere faithful, and obscurity enough to mislead 
the perverse unbelievers, according to the observation 
of St. Austin, because, after all, faith is not only a 
divine illustration of the understanding, but also a di- 
vine and yet voluntary motion of the will. Hence, if 
24* 



282 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

in traveling through this darksome vale, as Locke I 
think observes, God is pleased to give us the light of 
the moon or cf the stars^ we are not to stand still on 
our journey, because he does not afford us the light of 
the sun. * * * At all events, it is v/ise to choose 
the safer part, and it would be madness to act other- 
wise when eternity is at stake. The great advocates of 
Christianity, St. Austin, Pascal, Abbadie, and others 
argue thus in recommending it to us in preference to 
Infidelity. '^ * * 

It remains, my dear friends and brethren, for each of 
you to take his and her part : but remember that the 

part you severally take is taken for eternity ! On this 
occasion, therefore, if ever you ought to do so, reflect 

and decide seriously and conscientiously, dismissing all 
worldly motives, of whatever kind, from yom' mind — 
for what exchange shall a man receive for his soul ! 
(Matth. xvi, 20.) And what will the prejudiced 
opinion of your fellow-mortals avail you at the tribunal 
where we are all so soon to appear, and in the vast 
abyss of eternity, in which we shall be quickly all en- 
gulfed ! Will any of them plead your cause at that 
bar? And will your punishment be more tolerable 
from their sharing in it ? 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 283 



CHAPTER VII. 

SOCINIANISM. UNIYERSALIM, ETC. 

Depart from me, ye cm-sed, into everlasting fire wliicli was 
prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matth. xxv, 41,) 

Article 1. General remarks. 

Socinians are the disciples of Faustus Socin, who in 
the seventeenth century, renewed the errors of Arius, 
and added new blasphemies to the blasphemies of Arians 
The epitaph, which his friends inscribed on his tomb, 
deserves notice, it reads : " Luther has unroofed Baby- 
lon ; Calvin has demolished its walls ; F. Socin has dug 
uj) its foundation." By substituting the word Christian- 
ity for Babylon, it is impossible to sum up in terser words 
the progress of infidelity. There are very few men, at 
present who call themselves Socinians. For some reason 
or other they prefer the names of (Jnitarians, Anti* 
trinitarians, Universalists, Humanitarians and Restora- 
tionists. Unitarians reject the mystery of the Holy 
Trinity, which is the basis of Christianity. They are 
more j)roperly called anti-Trinitarians. Universalists are 
Unitarians who assume that name to express their be- 
lief in the final holiness and happiness of the whole 
human family. Humanitarians are a branch of Univer- 
salists, who reject the divinity of Jesus Christ, and 
believe only in his humanity. Restorationists, are an- 
other branch who maintain that there will be some kind 



284 CONVERSATIONS Or A 

of hell, after death, (something like our purgatory,) in 
opposition to the main body of Universal ists who have 
no hell at all. The difference between those infidels 
and deists, is that deists reject every revelation as a 
fable, whilst Universalists speak apparently with re- 
spect of the Bible, of Jesus Christ, of his divine mis- 
sion, and of his church, but in reality annul revelation 
by rejecting every article of faith, as the Trinity, the 
incarnation of the Word of God, the redemption of 
mankind, the divinity of Jesus Christ, original sin, the 
necessity of divine grace, the existence of sj)irits, and 
the sanction of moral laws, which is hell. This last 
article is the rallying point of the disciples of Socin. 
To sin with impunity is the aim of all infidels and here- 
tics. Materialists, Deists, Atheists, lay down different 
premises from those of Universalist, but their object 
and their conclusion are the same. Take away the fear 
of hell and the desire of Materialists to be annihilated 
like brutes, and the zeal of Universalists to spread their 
errors is incomprehensible and -^inexplicable. It is 
strange, and yet true, that a large amount of money is 
readily contributed in the United States and elsewhere 
to advance the cause of Universalism. I say strange ! 
for with a settled belief of hell's eternal punishments 
I mitterSifuid th^t it i rr^n sot o i religion ctiid charity to 
spare neither toils nor expenses to reclaim wretched 
sinners from their evil ways, and from eternal jDcrdition, 
but with the belief that all men shall be saved, it is a 
waste of time and money to erect churches, to endow 
universities and to support useless ministers. So much 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 285 

zeal is not for the salvation of men, (salvation is a sure 
thing, in the system of Universalists, ) it is not for the 
propagation of an abstract truth, (very few men part 
with their money for such a consideration,) it is not to 
counteract any bad effects of remorses and fear, (re- 
morses and fear do not lead to disorder and sin,) what 
is then the cause of so much zeal ? I dare not assert 
tliat it proceeds from a satanic desire to corrupt good 
morals and promote licentiousness ; I can hardly sup- 
pose that men are so wicked, but I dare assert that it 
springs from a latent desire to lull anxieties and banish 
well grounded fears, by adding the weight of numbers 
to shallow proofs and flimsy reasonings, 

Universalists claim, (without right,) that Jesus 
Christ and His Apostles and several of the Christian 
Fathers are on their side. During the dark ages they 
lose track of their society. Very dark ages, indeed, 
when all men feared God ! At the time of the Refor- 
mation they reappear with Servetus and Socin. They 
now boast, not without cause, that every Protestant 
Theologian of Germany is a believer in the final sal- 
vation of all men. In England, not a fcAV of the dig- 
nitaries of the Established Church, a Hoadley, a Balg- 
uy, a Chillingworth and others have been and are still 
Socinian Infidels. In the United States the number of 
Universalists is increasing yearly. Puritanical New 
England, in particular, is the hot-bed of modern Socin- 
ianism. Calvin burnt Servetus, the Antitrinitarian, 
and now the disciples of Calvin adopt the principles of 
Calvin's victim, without ceasing to praise his iniquitous 



286 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

judge ! Uni versalism has a regular organization in the 
United States. It has its General Convention, State 
Conventions, numerous associations, literary institu- 
tions, magazines and newspapers. Eminent writers, as 
Joseph Priestley, Hosea Ballou, Balfour, William El- 
lery, Chaning and others have done all that talents 
and learning can do to extinguish the fires of hell and 
shorten eternal punishments ; it is not in the power of man 
to change the word of God, any more than to change the 
course of the Sun. A particular feature of Universal- 
ism, is that its members cleave to the Protestant body, 
and that Protestants, consistently with their principles 
cannot refuse them the hand of fellowship. When in 
1808 the Socinians published what they termed an im- 
proved version of the New Testament, Protestants ex- 
claimed that it mangled and misrepresented the orig- 
inal text, perverted the meaning of the most important 
terms and explained away all that is available in the 
doctrinal system of Christianity, that it outraged every 
principle of sound biblical criticism ! Very true ! But 
the right of each individual to explain the scriptures 
by private interpretation, implies the right to translate 
them to the best of one's abilities. Every condemna- 
tion of a Protestant by another Protestant is a con- 
demnation of their fundamental principle and a confes- 
,sion that something more is required to understand the 
scriptures than human science and the light of indi- 
vidual reason. In our days, the Pan- Anglican Synod 
has condemned Bishop Colenso, and the decision of 
Protestant Bishops may be enforced by the parliament 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAIIY WITH AMERICANS 287 

and armies of England, but force will never constitute 
a right. Tlie English parliament has no more right to 
define orthodoxy, and determine what is and what is 
not the word of God, than it has to alter the rules of 
logic, to legitimate a contradiction, or validate a soph- 
ism. To grant in theory the right of private interpre- 
tation and to deny it in practice, is supreme inconsist- 
ency ; to claim authority in religious matters, after 
discarding authority, is unjust, illogical, absurd ! I 
make those remarks to warn the reader not to consider 
the following discussions with Universalists as a com- 
plete refutation of their errors. These errors and all 
errors can only be completely refuted, by proving that 
the rule of faith and criterion of truth is not reason 
alone, nor the Bible alone, nor both together, but the 
divine and infallible autliority of the Church in matters 
of religion. I have proved the insufficiency of reason? 
(Chapter vi. Art. 2,) for the insufticiency of the Bible 
and the divine authority of the Church, I beg the 
reader to read the great work of Dr. Milner, entitled : 
The End of Religious Controversy. 

Article 2. Anti-christianity of Socinians and Univer- 
salists. 

I met three Universalist ministers, on one of the 
floating palaces of the Mississippi. They were going 
to a State convention, and talked much of organizing 
their ministry and raising it to a higher literary stand ^ 
ard. Being a listener, I judged from their words that 
one belonged to the old Socinian school, another to the 
school of Humanitarians and the third to tlie branch of 



288 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Restorationists. See the Quakers, remarked one of 
them, they are not making any progress, they are losing 
ground, because they have no regular ministry. A 
church without ministers is like an army without offi- 
cers, like a ship without a captain and crew, like a flock 
without a shepherd. They had previously advanced so 
many unchristian propositions, that I felt it my duty to 
interfere, and respectfully remarked : 

Missionary. — -I agree v/ith you that ministers are 
necessary, but, gentlemen, if ministers are necessary, 
what becomes of the great principle that the Bible 
alone is the rule of faith ? The Bible and nothing but 
the Bible is the protestant motto. 

Tj7iiversaUst A. — The Bible, sir, is a very good book, 
but to have it rightly understood, there must be a body 
of learned men who devote their time to its study, there 
must be ministers to guide illiterate people, and regular 
preachers, whose duty it is to see that it be explained 
and understood according to the rules of sound criti- 
cism and the dictates of enlightened reason. 

Missionary. — That is almost the catholic principle. 

Vniversalist A. — Are you a catholic ?^ 

Mih'sionary. — Yes sir, a catholic priest. 

Vniversalist A. — I suppose you hold fast to the eter- 
nal damnation of accursed sinners and poor benighted 
heretics ? 

Missionary. — Yes, and I hold last to tlie divinity of 
Jesus Christ, to the infallibility of his church and to 
all the doctrines which she holds and teaches, because 
her founder Jesus Christ could neither deceive nor be 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY AVITII AMERICANS. 289 

deceived. This is my creed and according to your sys- 
tem of religion, I cannot be damned for it. 

Universalist A, — We firmly believe in universal salva- 
tion, but if any body could be damned eternally, those 
who preach eternal damnation ought surely to be the first 
to swim in then* imaginary lake of fire and brimstone. 

Missionary, — To return you the compliment, I think 
that Universalists stand the best chance to test the 
reality of the never dying worm and of the horrible 
lake described in the scriptures. 

Universalist A. — Do you think that Universalists are 
worse than other people ? 

Missionary. — Yes^ for other sects retain more or less 
truth which Universalists reject in toto. Other sects 
believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and retain bap- 
tism. Universalists, having no baptism, are not Chris- 
tians, and with regard to Jesus Christ, they respect 
Him no more than Mohammedans and Jews. Other 
sects believe in hell, and have therefore a sanction to 
human and divine laws. Universalists believe not the 
reality of hell, and have consequently no check to the 
perverse inclinations of our nature. Other sects be- 
lieve the inspiration of the Bible ; Universalists con- 
sider it as a mere record of past transactions which is not 
itself the word of God : other sects have a ministry, pres- 
byters, elders or bishops, whom they consider of divine 
institution ; Universalists have a ministry of purely hu- 
man origin. What are Universalist ministers, but 
lecturers who have no more mission from God than 
Mormon Bishops or Mohammedan Sheiks ? 
25 



290 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Universalist A. — You reason on the old notion that 
consecration with grease or oil is necessary to qualify 
a minister of the gospel. We have exploded that 
principle, and hold that every society, religious or po- 
litical, has a right to elect officers and make regulations 
and laws for the good government of its body. Vox 
populi, Vox Dei. 

Missionary. — On that principle Mormon Bishops, 
Mohammedan Sheiks and Indian Jugglers have as much 
right to the title of Reverend as Universalist ministers, 

Universalist A. — No, sir, societies which do not ad- 
here to the truth cannot give any authority to their 
ministers, although duly elected. Such societies stand 
like States which have rebelled agaiust their lawful 
government. All their proceedings are unlawful and 
null; but societies who -adhere to the truth, like our as- 
sociations, who maintain the pure and saving doctrines 
of Christianity, confer all necessary powers on their 
ministers by a regular call or election. Congregation- 
alists advocate the same principle. 

Missionary, — If I understand you lightly, the rights 
and powers of ministers are derived^rom the society 
which elects them to the dignity of preachers, as the 
powers of civil magistrates are derived from the election 
of theirfellow-citizens, and that election to be lawful 
and effective must be made by a society which adheres 
to the truth. 

Universalist A, — Exactly so. Vox Fopuliy Vox Dei, 
It is a practice sanctioned by enlightened reason and 
by the practice of early Christians. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 291 

Missionary. — Dear sir, neitliei^does reason nor does 
the practice of early Christians establish that ministers 
receive any power by the vote of laymen. As to yom* 
society, far from adhering to the truth, it rejects every 
truth, and every fundamental article of Christianity. I 
understand that a society of men have a right to elect 
their civil magistrates, who are the servants of the 
people ; but a society of men cannot constitute a man 
to be a minister of God, or an officer of God. It is 
God Himself who must appoint him and send him. A 
minister who cannot show that he is sent by God, is 
nothing more than a lecturer who delivers his opinions 
on the Bible as a heathen philosopher on ethics. Rea- 
son tells us, moreover, that it is not proper that people 
should make and unmake a minister, because the min- 
ister, instead of being the guide of the faithful, would, 
like civil officers, remain the servant of his people, be 
guided by them, court their applauses, flatter their 
prejudices, be deaf, dumb and blind to their errors and 
sins — in a word, fear them as a menial fears his mas- 
ter. If the people can strip a minister of his title of 
Reverend and of his diploma of preacher, eloquence 
becomes human and zeal is at an end. To argue, re- 
prove and thunder with a holy freedom, a minister 
must feel and let the people know that he holds his 
authority from God. No ! his authority is not to cease 
because the people, like the Jews, may cry : Crucify 
him, crucify him ! 

A system which debases the ministry and renders it 
servile, crouching and impotent cannot have been sane- 



292 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

tioned by Christ. Read the scriptures from St. Mat- 
thew to the apocalypse, read the annals of the church, 
from the days of the apostles to the days of Socin, and 
you will not find a j)assage nor bring forward a single 
fact to countenance the supremacy of the people in re- 
ligious matters. The Bible and the practice of early 
christians clearly show that the authority of ministers 
is derived directly from God, without the intervention 
of man. When our Saviour said to his apostles : All 
power is given to me in heaven and in earth, go ye, 
therefore teach all nations. (Matth. xxviii.) As my 
father has sent me, I also send you, (John xx,) the 
apostles received their pov/er and mission from him. 
We read in the acts of the apostles that Paul and Bar- 
nabas, (not the people or congregations,) ordained 
priests in every church. (Acts, xiv, 22.) When St. 
Paul gave directions about the choice of ministers, it 
was not to the people of Ephesus that he wrote, but to 
his beloved disciple Timothy, who was Bishop of that 
city : it was not to the Cretans, but to his beloved dis- 
ciple and companion Titus, that he gav€ commission to 
ordain priests in every city. (See his epistles to Timo- 
thy and Titus",) Frequently, it is true, the consent 
and the suffrages of the people were asked for the elec- 
tion of the persons to be ordained. This was an act of 
condescension on the part of the Bishop and a wise pre- 
caution, the use of which is not altogether discontinued 
in the church, but this previous choice was never deemed 
either essentially requisite or sufficient of itself, nor can 
a single instance be adduced to the contrary. It is 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 293 

therefore manifest that the right to invest ministers 
with spiritual power belongs not to the people, and that 
the exercise of such a right by any human power is a 
sacrilegious usurpation of authority. 

Universalist A. — It matters not if Ave preach by hu- 
man or divine right, provided we preach the truth. 
That is the essential point. 

Missionarij. — Indeed, gentlemen, you are far from 
preaching the truth. When you boast that your society 
adheres to the pure and saving doctrines of Christianity 
you assert what every sectarian society asserts, and your 
proof is like theirs, an appeal to the Bible which every 
one understands in his own way. It is the old saying : 
Orthodoxy is my Doxy. We have clearer marks of truth, 
viz : Unity, holiness, catholicity and apostolicity of 
our church. The church which is one, holy, catholic 
and apostolic is the true church, the pillar of truth, and 
therefore our infallible guide. He who does not hear 
the church will not long adhere to the truth. He will 
soon deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, and finally deny 
the authority of God ; and if consistent, fall into absolute 
skepticism. But Avere it true that a man without au- 
thority from God, could preach the pure doctrines of 
Christianity without a mixture of error, by usurping the 
functions of lawful ministers, he would sin like Core, 
Dathan and Abiram, whose fate you know. 

Universalist A. — You talk like an old Jesuit. You 

do not take into account the laws of progress and the 

advancement of the human intellect. The Apostles 

and their immediate successors, lived in an age when 

25*- 



294 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

truth could not be fully developed and understood. 
Faith is perfected as reason progresses, and takes the 
ascendency. The bible, to be fully understood, must 
be explained according to the rules of a sound crit- 
icism and learned exegesis. The letter killeth, but the 
spirit giveth life. 

Missionary. — There is more sense to talk like an old 
Jesuit than like modern transcendentalists. Their ideas 
of progress are absurd and anti-christian. As God 
created Adam and Eve and all things "good," so has he 
given us a revelation com23lete and perfect, and as man 
can only disfigure the human body by trying to perfect 
it, in the same manner we could only disfigure the re- 
velation of God by what you call human improve- 
ments. Religious truth is the same to-day as yester- 
day — unchangeable as God. To assert that reason can 
perfect faith, is to place man above God, a folly and a 
blasphemy ! If the revelation of God is perfect and 
complete, it admits evidently of no other progress than 
to make it known and believed ; if imperfect and in- 
complete, God alone, and nc^ man can add to it and 
perfect it. To assert that it was complete, but imper- 
fectly understood by the apostles is a clear denial of 
God's words, who said to them, " when he the spirit of 
truth shall come, he will teach you all truth," (John xvi, 
13,) and also " I am with you, all days, to the consum- 
mation, of the world." Now, the Holy Ghost, the sj^irit 
of truth, has come down upon the apostles on the day of 
Pentecost, and they were filled with it, and they began 
to speak with divers tongues. (Acts, ii, 4.) Reason 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 205 

tells us, besides, that the nearer we go to the source, 
the clearer the stream. Protestants themselves, without 
exception, had the good sense to acknowledge that 
primitive Christianity was pure and perfect. On the 
supposition that errors, corruptions and innovations had 
disfigured the primitive faith and worship, the protest- 
ant system is not absurd. They considered Christianity 
as a perfect and beautiful body made hideous by sores 
and leprosy, and naturally called it an improvement to 
cure that body and restore it to its original forms and 
beauty. However mistaken and wrong, they at least 
had not the effrontery to assert that man can improve 
the gospel, or recast it to suit the present generation. 
If you mean by your learned Exegesis, your progress 
and your advancement of the human intellect that the 
word of God has different meanings, according to times 
and places, I merely think and say that your progress 
is backwards, and has a downward tendency : it is a 
progi^ess toward heathenism. 

Article 3. Fundamental error of Socinians and Hu- 
manitarians. Denying the divinity of Jesus Christ. 

After a few minutes of silence, Universalist B , 

a humanitarian, said : 

Universalist B. — There are two extremes to be avoid- 
ed, which are equally false and dangerous— Infidelity 
and Superstition. Your great error is to beUeve too 
much. Your whole system of Theology is built on a 
false basis. You begin with the inconceivable dogma 
of the Trinity ; then comes the Incarnation of the 
Word, the Atonement, the Church, Purgatory and 



296 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Hell. You worship Jesus Christ as God, and next to 
Him you rank the Pope and his bishops as partakers of 
God's infallibility. Would to God ! that you would 
throw off your Trinity, and cling to the unity of the 
Deity, and the whole superstructure of human doc- 
trines raised by the dry scholastics of the dark ages 
would fall to the ground ! 

Missionary. — We all believe in one God and cling to 
the unity of the Deity. As to the Church with its in- 
fallibility and prerogatives, it stands firm and unshaken 
even on your principles. Do you not believe that 
Jesus Christ was infallible ? 

Universalist B. — Yes, we believe firmly in his divine 
mission and saving doctrines. 

Missionary. — If you believe that Jesus Christ had a 
divine mission, I have only to prove that he has given 
to His Apostles and to their successors the gift of in- 
fallibility, as he has given them the power to forgive 
and to retain sins. Read the last verses of the gospel 
of St. Matthew. There is nothing clearer. Our 
Saviour says : ^^ All poif^er is given to me in Heaven 
and in earth ; go ye^ therefore.^ and te<jtch all natioriSy 
baptizing them i7i the name of the Father and of the 
So7i and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to ohserve 
all things lohatsoever I have commaiided you ; and 
behold I am loith you all days, even to the consum.- 
"^nation of the worldP There you see the Trinity 
which you deny ; there you find baptism which you 
reject ; there you find the Apostolic succession which 
you controvert, a succession which is expressed also in 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY AVITll AMERICANS. 297 

the words : " As my Father has sent me, I also send 
you." (John xx. 21.) There you find infallibility prom- 
ised to them and their successors, so that the gates of 
Hell shall not prevail against the Church ; there you 
see the indefectibility of the Church, ''lam loith you 
all days even unto the coiisummation of the loorld^'^ 

TJniversaUst B. — Jesus Christ was infallible in ex- 
plaining the law, but he was not infallibility itself In- 
fallibility proper is the prerogative of God. In order to 
prove that Jesus Christ delegated infallibility, you must 
prove first that he was- God, and it is clear, from the 
Scriptures, that our Lord never meant to be w^orshiped 
as God. 

Missionary, — I see that you are a Humanitarian and 
a Deist rather than a Christian. Your own fellow- 
preachers disagree with you, and you disagree not only 
with them, but with the great majority of Protestants, 
with the Greek Church, and with the Catholic Church. 
Protestants, Greeks and Latins all adore Jesus Christ ; 
all belie v^e that He was true God and true man; all 
agree that the Bible has no rational meaning, and is 
unintelligible on any theory which denies to Jesus 
Christ a real humanity on the one hand, and a real and 
personal divinity on the other. All agree that Jesus 
Christ can only be true God, by being One Person of 
the Trinity made man for our redemption. 

Universalist B. — The number of opponents adds 
nothing to the nature and weight of arguments. The 
immense number of heathens will not excuse their 
idolatry. Sound logic weighs the reasons and princi- 



298 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

pies of a system without counting the number of its 
advocates. A clear passage of the scrij^tures is worth 
a hundred texts of a doubtful meaning, and is a superior 
authority to the opinion of a million of men. Now, 
what is clearer than this passage : " My father is 
greater than I."? (John, xiv., 28.) 

Missionary. — I beg you to remark that I have not 
adduced the universal testimony of Christians as a 
f)hilosophical argument, but as a proof which derives 
its force from the positive words of Jesus Christ. Our 
Saviour having promised that the gates of hell shall 
not prevail against the Church, (Math, xvi., 13,) he 
who rejects the unanimous belief of Christendom, im- 
plicitly admits that Jesus Christ has not fulfilled his 
promise, and that the gates of hell have prevailed against 
the Church, and that admission implies the shocking 
impiety that Jesus Christ has lied ! 

The passage of Scripture which you have quoted, 
and all other passages quoted by Humanitarians, relate 
to Jesus Christ as man. As son of man, Jesus Christ 
could say : Mj father is greater than I : but, as God 
and Son of God, he said : I and the father are One. 
(John X, 30.) When you read in the ScrijDtures: 
" The word was God. (John, i. 1.) '' All things that 
the father has are mine. (John, xvi, 15.) " The 
Jews crucified the Lord of Glory. (1, Cor. ii., 8.) All 
things were created by him, and in him, and He is be- 
fore all, and by him all things consist. (Col. i, 16-17.) 
And so many other passages which cannot be explain- 
ed away without having recourse to the most licentious 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 299 

criticism : When you consider that Jesus Christ was 
announced not as a Cyrus, or a John the Baptist, but 
from the beginning of the world ; that the Jewish na- 
tion has been raised to be the guardian of the promises 
of God, concerning his advent ; that prophets after 
prophets have renewed that heavenly promise ; that 
heathens themselves sighed after his coming, that 
angels announced his birth, that he showed in his 
youth a superhuman wisdom ; that he performed 
miracles, not with a borrowed power, but as ruler of 
the Avorld; that nature was convulsed at his death. 
When you consider all this, you must confess that, if 
we are idolaters, it is God himself who is the cause and 
the author of our error and crime, by granting to Jesus 
Christ so much power and glory, and inspiring the 
sacred writers of the Bible with expressions w^hich 
oblige us to adore him. You must, moreover, despise 
as idolaters the holy martyrs who have shed their 
blood for his sake ; for it is an undeniable truth that 
these men, when accused of adoring Jesus Christ cruci- 
fied, never said: You are mistaken, toe adore him 
not. No, they adored him, and heroically sacrificed 
their lives for his glory ; and in so doing, those noble 
martyrs only obeyed the precepts of Jesus Christ, who 
commands us to love him more than our brothers or 
sisters, and more than ourselves ; but as God alone has 
a right to our life, if Jesus Christ is not God, you are 
wrong to call him good : you must call him a tyrant. 
If Jesus Christ is not God, you cannot call him holy, 
for he has forgiven sins and delegated to his apostles 



300 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

the power to forgive sins : instead of calling him holy, 
you must call him, with the Jews, a blasphemer ! If 
Jesus Christ is not God, you cannot even admit his 
divine mission, for the end of all revelations is to have 
the true God known and adored, but if Jesus Christ 
has only replaced one form of idolatry by another 
form, and if, instead of worshiping in spirit and in 
truth, we are dupes and simpletons who adore a man, 
his mission has been vain, and you must call him, with 
Deists and Infidels : an impostor. As you profess 
to believe that Jesus Christ was good, holy and di- 
vinely sent, for our salvation, may God grant you, in 
his mercy, to be consistent and to confess not only 
his humanity^ but also, his divinity. 

Universalist B. — Your idolatry is harmless. I con- 
demn neither Gentiles, Jews nor Christians ; for thek 
differences are all in forms. There is none in idea. The 
idolatry of christians is less stupid, thanthat of hea- 
thens. It will be replaced in time, and begins to be 
replaced by a more reasonable worship, the worship in 
spirit and truth of Unitarians. _ 

Missionary. — Instead of saying that the idolatry of 
christians is less stupid than that of heathens, you 
might well say that it is less stupid than the unbelief of 
Humanitarians. He who condemns neither Jews nor 
Gentiles, might as well say that he does not condemn 
the devil, and affirm that all will fare alike in the next 
world. 

Article 4. Another fundamental error of some Uni- 
versalists. Denying hell. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 301 

Ua I versa list B. — I do not reject your consequence. I 
believe in universal salvation. The mission of Jesus 
Christ is abortive on any other plan. Universal salvation ! 
that is the only doctrine consonant with the perfections 
of the deity, worthy of the character of Christ, in harmo- 
ny with the scriptures and in accord with the feelings 
and desires of our soul. I hold that a full and perfect 
retribution takes place in this world, that our conduct 
here below cannot affect our future condition, and that^ 
the moment man exists after death, he will be as pure 
and as holy as the angels. This is my firm conviction 
and my hope. 

Missionary. — Your ideas of universal salvation are so 
enlarged, that your OAvn friends cannot swallow them. 
Mr. C , for example, (a Restorationist,) is not pre- 
pared to subscribe to your strange propositions, that a 
full and perfect retribution takes place in this world 
that our conduct on earth cannot affect our future con! 
dition and that death makes us as pure as angels. 

j/j., (7. — I agree perfectly with my Rev. friend on 
the essential points of universal salvation. There is no 
breach of fellowship between us, nor alienation of 
hearts and affections, on account of trifling differences 
of opinion in regard to the duration and extent of 
punishments. 

Missionary. — Did I not hear you say, a while ago, 
in your conversation with Mr. B , that a just retri- 
bution does not take place in time, that the conscience 
ol tlie sinner becomes callous and does not increase in 
the severity of its reprovings, with the increase of guilt ; 
26 



302 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

that men are invited to act with reference to a future 
life ; that if all are made happy at the commencment 
of the next state of existence, they are not rewarded 
or punished according to their deeds ; that if death in- 
troduces them into heaven, they are saved by death, 
not by Christ ; and if they are made happy by being 
liaised from the dead, they are saved by physical and 
not by moral means and made happy without their 
^agency or consent ; that such a sentiment weakens the 
motives to virtue^ and gives force to the temj^tations of 
vice ; that it is unreasoDable in itself and opposed to 
many passages of scripture ? 

Mr, C. — I retract nothing of what I have said. I do 
not share the opinion of my Rev. friend, and believe 
that there are penalties after death. 

Missionary. — You have certainly good reasons to differ 
from your friend, and I should think reason enough to 
refuse him the hand of fellowship. The existence of 
hell is not a trifling opinion, as you intimated, but a 
momentous question. I make very little difference be- 
tween a man who denies God, and one w^ho denies the 
justice of God. If I had five dollars in my pocket, I 
would not travel alone with either of them. That man 
may talk of justice and honesty, but it is all bombast. 
The Deist Rousseau had more honesty, better principles 
and a greater respect for Christianity than many Rev. 
preachers who undertake to explain the Bible and who 
translate it as Scarron did Virgilius. The Deist Rous- 
seau, after relating what Chardin says of the bridge 
called by Mohammedans JPoul serr/io and of the fear of 



CATHOLIC .MISSIONARY WITH A31ERICANS. 303 

Persians to be stopped by tiieir accusers, at this side of 
the bridge, wisely remarks : '^ Shall I believe that the 
" idea of that bridge which causes the reparation of so 
^'many injustices, never prevents any? If those Per- 
" sians were deprived of the idea, and persuaded that 
''there is no Poul-serrlio, nor any thing of the kind, 
''where those who are injured will have justice done 
'' them after death, is it not evident that the wicked 
'' would delight at being relieved of the obligation of 
'' appeasing those poor people ! It is therefore false 
" that that doctrine would produce no evil, and there- 
'' fore, it is not true. Philosopher, (let me say Univer- 
'' salist,) your moral laws are charming, but, please, 
'' show me their sanction. Cease, for a moment, to talk 
'' at random, and tell me candidly what you put in the 
" place of the Poid-serrhor (Emil. t. iii.) It is idle 
to talk of remorses, what are the remorses of a man 
who has nothing to fear beyond the grave ! It is idle 
to talk of rewards and punishments in this life. Expe- 
rience shows that the just do not fare better and not 
even as well in this world, as the wicked. It is a fact 
so apparent that philosophers generally make it a pre- 
mise to conclude that our soul is immortal. The same 
fact is divinely expressed in the gospel. ''Amen, 
Amen, I say to you, says our Lord to his disciples, 
that you shall lament and weep, but the world shall re- 
joice." (John xvi, 20.) "There was a certain rich 
man, says our Lord, who was clothed in purple and 
fine linen, and feasted sumptuously every day; and 
there was a certain beggar by the name of Lazarus, 



304: CONVEKSATIONS OF A 

who lay at his gate full of sores, desiring to be fed 
with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, 
and no one did give him. Moreover the dogs came 
and licked his sores. And it came to pass that the 
beggar died, and he was carried by the angels into 
Abraham's bosom, and the rich man died and he was 
buried in hell : and he cried, father Abraham have 
mercy on me ***** for I am tormented in this 
flame. And Abraham said to him, son, remember that 
thou didst receive good things in thy life time, and 
likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted 
and thou art tormented. (Luke xvi.) Here is a sin- 
ner who received good things in his life time, and a 
friend of God who received evil things, until they both 
died. I defy universalist ingenuity to reconcile that 
parable with their system, and particularly with the 
principle that a full and perfect retribution takes place 
in this world. When I read such passages, I cannot 
help to conclude that such men as H. Ballou, Balfour, 
Parker and company, are worse infidels than Deists and 
Mohammedans. 

Article 5. Another fundamental error of Universalists. 
Denying the eternity of hell. 

Mr. B. remaining silent, Mr. C, Restorationist, 
said: 

Universalist C. — I admit that there are penalties 
after death, and that j^unishment in the next world is 
right and necessary ; but I hold fast to universal sal- 
vation and protest against the cruel dogma of eternal 
punishments. The arguments of my friend B., in. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAKY WITH AMEKICANS. 305 

favor of universal salvation, remain intact, thank God. 
You have answered none of the reasons which support 
our main doctrine. 

Missionco'i/. — I will do it now ; but before refuting 
your darling theory, I have to remark that you change 
Hell into Purgatory. When Luther began to declaim 
against the Church, an old Avoman who had listened to 
a violent harangue against jDurgatory, hastened home 
to her husband and said : I have news to tell you , 
they have suppressed Purgatory ! They are fools, 
said the husband, if they wanted to suppress any 
thing, they ought to have suppressed hell. Now, 
you come to the point. You are reforming the Re- 
formation. You suppress hell and reintroduce some 
kind of a Purgatory, (i) Your friend B., in the name 
of progress goes further and suppresses both hell and 
purgatory, but I fear that his theory will not suppress 
sin nor promote virtue. I will now do justice to the 
arguments of your friend B. All the reasons which 
he has brought forward are his assertion that your 
doctrine harmonizes with the scriptures, with the 
perfections of God and the wishes of man. I claim 
tlie scriptures on my side. 

Universalist C. — How can you claim the scriptures \ 
They show that God has created only to bless, that God 



(I.) The souls in purgatory are holy souls, but not entirely pure. They 
shall be saved, yet so, as by fire. . (i cor. in. 13,) The dogma of purgatory 
is perfectly consistent with the doctrine that death shall seal the ultimate 
destiny of man, for the reward of Heaven is secured to the souls that are 
detained in purgatory. Restorationiets place indiscriminatly in hell all the 
souls that are excluded from Heaven, but their hell, not being eteenal, is 
nothing more than Purgatory. 

26* 



306 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

is infinitely benevolent, infinitely good, infinitely merci- 
ful, that Christ our mediator, has atoned for all men. 
Punishment is then a discipline, a mediatorial work, 
perfectly consistent with mercy. There is no reason to 
suppose that the probation of man is confined to the 
present life. It will extend through the mediatoral 
reign that shall not end until Christ shall have delivered 
up the Kingdom to the Father, after all sinners shall 
have been led to a change of heart and repentance. 

Missionary. — Your supposition that there shall be a 
state of probation after death, and universal repentance 
is unscriptural and gratuitous. I refer you to the text 
of the Ecclesiastes, chapter xi, verse 3d. It says : " If 
the tree falls to the south or to the north, in what place 
soever it shall fall, there it shall be.'' Therefore, will 
the state of the soul after death, be unchangeable. A 
soul that departs this life in a state of grace, shall never 
fall from grace ; as on the other side a soul that dies in a 
state of mortal sin, shall never be forgiven. The door 
will be closed against the foolish virgins, and to the 
day of salvation will succeed a night in which no man 
can work. (John, ix, 4.) That does nway with your 
forced conversion after death and settles the question. 
All our reasonings cannot extend the eflTects of the 
benevolence and mercy of God, beyond the time marked 
out by his word. The eternal duration of the torments 
of hell is so clear in the scriptures, that all linguists of 
any note, catholics or protestants, agree that the words 
of ancient languages which we translate by the words, 
for ever, eternal, everlasting, literally means endless. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONAIiY WITH AMERICANS. 307 

When these words are used improperly for a Umited 
diu'ation, tliere is always in the context, or in the nature 
of the subject, something to indicate that they are not 
used in their proper or literal sense ; but when God 
has chosen the same terms to express the duration of 
future punishment which he employs to express 
the duration of future felicity ; when we . read 
of a flre that shall never be quenched, of a worm 
that shall never die, there is absolutely nothing 
to justify a deviation from the natural, obvious 
and literal sense. See, moreover, the description 
of the last judgment by our Lord. (Matt, xxv.) 
The son of man shall separate one from another 
as a shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats ; 
and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the 
goats on the left, and these shall go into everlasting 
punishment, but the just into life everlasting. It is not 
said, the goats shall have a second probation, another 
trial, a further chance ; they will be forced to repent, 
but they shall go into everlasting punishment. Add to 
this the universal belief of the fathers, for it is false 
that any of the Fathers have upheld the doctrine of 
XJniversalists. The unanimous teaching of all the 
Churches is not only a strong presumption in our 
favor, but the decision of an infallible authority, since 
our Lord has promised that the gates of hell shall not 
prevail against the Church. Finally, remember that 
everlasting punishments, terrible and awful as they ap- 
pear, are not too strong a motive to subdue our wicked 
inclinations, and you will cease to weaken the neces- 



308 CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

sary sanction of laws. Men are bad enough with tlie 
fear of hell ; how much more v/icked would they be 
should you succeed to banish fears and remorses by 
your new-fengled theories and alluring sophistry ! 

Universalist C. — jSTo sophistry, sir ! The meaning 
of scriptures cannot be that God is cruel, that he has 
implanted in our heart an infinite and innate desire of 
happiness, which cannot be satiated either in this life 
or in the life to come, that He has created us to His 
image and likeness, to torment us during all eternity ! 

Missionary. — I have seen your reasons keenly ex- 
pressed by a Wisconsin Senator. He remarked that 
Universalists believed that God was too good to damn 
anybody, and Unitarians, that they were too good to be 
damned. (The question was : does the change of name 
of Universalist into that of Unitarian, involve a change 
of religious belief) When I hear Pantheists assert- 
ing that we are a part of God,' or Spiritualists affirm- 
ing that our soul is an emanation of the Great Spirit ; 
or Universalists maintaining that we are all in Christ 
as we were in Adam, it comes to the remark of the 
witty Senator, that loe are too good To he damned. 
You are not, I hope, a Pantheist who denies the per- 
sonality of human beings, or a Materialist wlio denies 
that man is a responsible agent, or an Infidel who de- 
nies the words of St. Paul, that neither adulterers, nor 
thieves, nor murderers can enter the Kingdom of 
Heaven. Now, is God too good to damn, anybody? 

(Here a German raised his voice and said in broken 
English :) 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 309 

'^ I have meiii frau and meiii kinder. Me not piiii- 
^' ish tliem for everlasting ; me not burn them for their 
^* sins, and Gott, sure, be better than me." 

Well, sir ! exclaimed Mr. C, you have the testimony 
of an upright, unprejudiced Teuton. Vox Popxdi^ 
Vox X>ei. 

Missionary. — Stop a while Mr. C. Well, my friend, 
(addressing the German,) suppose that your good 
wife would betray you, and when you go home that 
you find her in the act of adultery, what would you do ? 

German. — It can't be, sir, she is a good woman. 
No, sir. 

Missionary, — But, suppose it would happen, what 
would you do ? 

German. — By Gott me kill her and kill him. 

Missionary, — And would not that be an everlasting 
punishment, as everlasting as man can ntake it. Now, 
suppose that your children would try to murder you ! 

German, — It cannot be, sir, they be goot childer, 
very goot ; no sir. 

Missionary. — But supposing that they turn bad and 
do it, would you give them your farm, and love them 
as before ? 

German. — Me could not, aber mein Gott, dat won't 
sein 5 no sir. 

Missionary, — I hope it will never happen. I only 
want you to see that love can be changed into hatred 
by atrocious crimes. Now, if men, if a husband, if a 
father can punish in their anger, those Avhom they love 
so tenderly, how much more will God, who is justice 



310 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

and holiness punish those who violate his laws, who 
mock him, and who would, if possible, dethrone him ! 
When a court martial sentences a traitor to be shot, or 
a judge sentences a murderer to be hanged or impris- 
oned for life, they make the penalty as long as human 
power can make it, and we do not find it unreasonable. 
On the same principle God must punish sinners for- 
ever, if their sins remain forever, and having proved 
that no repentance is possible after death, the sins 
remain forever, and so will the penalty of sin last 
forever. 

Vniversalist C. — Say what you please, sir, I cannot 
reconcile an eternity of torments with the perfections 
of God. There is no proportion between the short 
duration of sin and its endless punishment. The doc- 
trine of universal salvation satisfies reason, but your 
cruel dogma of an implacable God, who damns forever 
his own creatures who can do him no real injury, and 
whom he could save v/ithout detriment to his glory, 
that inconceivable hatred alienates more people from 
Christianity than all other absurdities and incompre- 
hensible dogmas. 

Missionary. — God knovfs perfectly, and we know, 
though imperfectly, the malice of sin. God knows 
what he has done for sinners, the measure of graces 
which he has given them and the length of time he 
has waited for their repentance. \Ye know more- 
over that he has sent us his only begotten Son, to 
warn us and to be our model, our mediator and redeem- 
er ; that God is infinite, and that sin, however short 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICAN?. 311 

in duration, has, because it is a rebellion against God, 
an infinite malice ; that the damnation of men is not 
chargeable to God, who wishes the salvation of all men, 
but to the perverted will of sinners who abuse their 
liberty. With regard to infidels, let them avoid evil 
and do good, let them love God and their neighbors, 
and they will soon love Christianity. They have cer- 
tainly good reasons to fear hell and wish annihilation, 
but they have no reasons to blaspheme God, because he 
is just and holy. 

The dmner bell put an end to our conversation. I 
could not perceive any good results from it. The rev- 
erend gentlemen had made up their mind to twist the 
Scriptures into a confirmation of their errors, but a 
Missionary must, like St. Paul, be instant in^season and 
out of season (2 Tim. iv. 2,) and is a debtor to the 
Greeks and to the barbarians, to the wise and to the 
unwise. (Rom. i, 14.) 

" Socinians, says Bossuet, who like Indifierents, 
'^ praise above all things, holiness of life, and the nar- 
" row path of good morals widen, amazingly, the road 
" of salvation, by dooming to perdition and to the loss 
'^ of eternal life, habitudinarians only!" Socin, him- 
" self, has not been ashamed to say : " that the murderer 
" or homicide, who is judged worthy of death and in- 
" capable of enjoying eternal life, is not he who has 
"killed one man^ or committed one act of homicide, 
" but he who has contracted the habit of so great a 
'• crime." (Soc. in Cap. iii, 1, ep. jo., etc.) " There 
" is nothing^ so much inculcated in his works than this 



312 ' CONVEKSATIOXS OF A 

" doctrine. It is also the opinion of the greatest uum- 
'' ber of his disciples, and amongst others of Crellius, 
" one of the most celebrated. The question is not to 
^' save from damnation those who truly and sincerely 
^'repent 5 there is not a word about that, in all their 
" discourses, and every body knows that all sins, how- 
" ever enormous, malicious and numerous, can be for- 
" given in that w^ay ; the question is to find an excuse 
"to sin, in sin itself: and, behold, what has been as- 
" serted on this subject by Protestants, who pride 
" themselves, above all others, of adhering to sound 
" morality. You see how relaxed they are on this 
"point: On others they are rigorous, to extremes, 
" etc. (Bossuet 6, advert, to Protestants, N. cxiv.) 

Since the days of Bossuet, the disciples of Socin 
have only fallen deeper and deeper into the abyss of 
infidelity and irreligion. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS, 313 



CHAPTER YlII 

MESMERISM — SPIRITUALISM. 

Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits, 
whether they be of God. ***>!<* He that is not of God, 
heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth and the 
spirit of error. (1 John, iv, 1 and G.) 

Mesmerism and Spiritualism have attracted, of late, 
considerable attention. The reader will perceive, at a 
glance, that I do not take the word Spiritualism, ac- 
cording to the definition of Lexicons, but in the sense 
of people who believe that they communicate Avith de- 
parted spirits. Before I analyze Spiritualism, I must 
say something of Mesmerism, because there is some 
analogy between Mesmerism and Spiritualism, and be- 
cause some mesmerists, extending beyond limits, their 
boasted power of animal magnetism have been hostile 
to religion. The analogy between Mesmerism and 
Spiritualism consists in this : That both the Mesmer- 
ist and Spiritualist hold, or at least pretend to hold 
communications with spirits ; the difference is this : 
that Spiritualists converse with spirits out of the flesh, 
or divested of their bodies ; whilst Mesmerists con- 
verse with spirits in the flesh, or still united to a body, 
but rendered emiAently active and supremely intelli- 
gent by deadening the senses through the influence of 
animal magnetism. Mesmerists have not introduced a 
new religion, perhaps, because spirits in the flesh are 
27 



814 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

not supposed to go beyond the moon and stars, and 
being confined to this world, cannot tell what happens 
in the next. Without introducing a new religion, some 
Mesmerists have flattered themselves with the idea of de- 
stroying the old one, by the discovery and possession of 
a focus of light, which they thought, would enable them 
to explain away the visions of prophets, the extacies 
of saints, the possession of men by wicked spirits, the 
miracles of Jesus Christ and his apostles ; in a word, 
every thing supernatural. After numberless experi- 
ments, men are not much wiser nor healthier than 
formerly. Mesmerists have performed no miracles, 
and the evidence of the miracles and prophecies related 
in the Bible remains in full force. The church has 
condemned the use of animal magnetism in all cases, 
when good morals and piety are endangered, but Mes- 
merism itself is not condemned, and men of science 
remain free to investigate and study the mysterious 
agent called animal magnetism. 

Having prefixed these few remarks on Mesmerism, 
on account of the infidel tendencies (ifLsome Mesmer- 
ists, I now come to the subject of Spiritualism. 

What is spiritualism ? It is tlie religion of people 
who converse with departed spirits. The members of 
the fraternity who have the honor to converse with 
spirits are called Mediums. There are diflTerent ways to 
coax the spirits to come and converse with Mediums 
Sometimes the members of a spiritual circle surround a 
table and keep their hands upon it until it moves. That 
is table-turning and spirit-rapping. Sometimes they 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 315 

hold their hands together in a dark room ; but all will 
be better defined and explained when spiritualists will 
have made a ritual and a prayer book, and erected 
meeting houses of theii: own, for their error is so new 
that everything has to be created. Meanwhile they 
meet, (chiefly in large cities,) in public halls or school 
houses. Their form of worship is not unlike that of 
Protestants. It consists of one or two hymns, a short 
prayer, a passage from the Bible — a sermon or lecture 
by a speaker who is moved and called trance- speakei' — 
another hymn, whilst a collection is taken — and finally 
a blessing by the trance-speaker. There is, occasion- 
ally, as an appendix, an address from some sisters who 
do not mind the advice of St. Paul, to women, to be 
silent. And why would they 1 for they claim to be 
inspired as well as St. Paul ! Spiritualists have no 
creed. What need have they of a creed, since they 
communicate directly with Heaven ! They fancy that 
the time will come when there will be no exterior wor- 
ship, no ministers, no Bible. Then will the Holy Ghost 
enlighten every soul directly, or indirectly by created 
spirits. They want no exotic, no stereotyped form of 
belief, no religious ideas imported from Asia or Africa. 
All must come from Heaven through the Holy Ghost 
and ministering spirits. It is painful and shocking to 
hear Mediums, (sometimes young and bold females,) 
advocating Pantheism, Fatalism, Libertinism and every 
kind of isms, and uttering, without a blush, the grossest 
blasphemies against Jesus Christ and his holy mother. 
They generally praise every church as being gooci, un- 



316 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

til we have something better. They praise particularly 
the Catholic Church, because she holds communion 
with departed spirits, but their end and their aim is the 
destruction of all religions and of all moral principles. 
Are spiritualists in earnest ? Are they so blind as to 
believe that Mediums converse with spirits ? There is 
BO doubt that the desire to commune with relations or 
Mends who have passed into another world, is often so 
powerful as to affect, in some degrees, the reason 
of those who have suffered losses by death. 
This desire is probably the reason why many per- 
sons rush to pretended Mediums in hope of finding 
some means of communicating with their friends 
across the distant void. Others, when all medicines 
have failed, apply to Mediums as a last resource, and 
as they pay cash^ for consultations, they are, I should 
think, in earnest. There are, besides, some wretched 
people, who desire so ardently to unsettle the univer- 
sal notions of right and wrong, and whose conscience 
is so rotten, that they welcome every mountebank and 
impostor who knows their weakness. They are cer- 
tainly blind and wilfully blind. Should^hey consider 
that Mediums have never cured any body, that exam- 
ples are not wanting of famous Mediums, who, after 
working wonders, have ended by swindling the dupes 
of their new revelation out of their earthly currency, 
that a number of unfaithful wives or husbands have be- 
come entirely carnal by Spiritualism, they would under- 
stand that most of those dishonest and lecherous Medi- 
ums deserve to be consigned to prison or to bedlam. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH A3IERICANS. 317 

Is Spiritualism merely an imposture ! or is the devil at 
the bottom of it ? There are Spii'itualist Lecturers and 
Mediums who make money by forming here and there 
spiritual circles and by telling their experience of the 
spirit world, who afterward turn state evidence against 
Spiritualism, and find it more profitable to lecture 
against the new humbug, and prove that it is all impos- 
ture, tricks and legerdemain. The roguery of the 
Davenport hoys^ and of many other Spiritualists, is now 
evident and has been exposed to tlie world ; but is it 
all humbug 'i Is not the devil at work ? I have read 
of many instances when the presence of a good chris- 
tian, who would bless himself with the sign of the 
cross, drove away, or at least, kept away the spirits. 
No answer could be obtained, or if forced to answer, 
the spirits would confess that they were demons. I 
have not a sufficient evidence of the truth of those facts, 
and granting that the facts are fairly stated, it is pos. 
sible that a skillful operator merely wanted to frighten 
credulous people and attract notoriety. One thing is 
certain ; it is that spirits or Mediums lie, and lying is 
the devil's characteristic. If inquiries are made about 
men who had no principles of morality, they are never 
in hell ; they are happy, and ascending from one 
sphere to another. The answers of spirits lead to in- 
differentism in religious matters. Jews or Christians, 
Methodists or Catholics, Deists or Atheists, all are on 
their w^ay to eternal bliss. The answers on human 
events are like the oracles of heathens, sometimes 
strikingly correct on past events, which the devil 
27* 



318 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

may know, sometimes entirely at variance with truth. 
The answers on future events, which the devil can only 
guess at, are always ambiguous. It is not improbable 
that the devil is allowed fair play particularly in large 
cities, which are more corrupted than Sodom and Go- 
morrha, and where there is a debauched public senti- 
ment upon all questions of law and the duties of man 
to God and to his fellow-men. A number of facts 
establishes moreover, that the power of the devil is 
greater in idolatrous and infidel lands than in christian 
countries, where the prayers of the just ascend the 
throne of mercy. Indian jugglers can beat all our 
spiritualists. Instead of table-moving and rapping, 
their lodges move and stuffed animals walk around 
their camps and obey their orders. These are curious 
facts, well attested by holy missionaries who relate 
what they have seen, and who have nothing of the 
old woman on their brain. Some of the feats of Chinese 
and Mohammedan jugglers puzzle our savans and philos- 
ophers. We read in the gospel of many persons pos- 
sessed by the devil ; we read in Tertulian and other 
holy fathers that the name of Jesus Christ silenced the 
oracles of heathens and chained the power of the 
wicked spirits. The holy name of Jesus is not j^ro- 
nounced with faith by spiritualists. Let them invoke 
that name, let them make the sign of the cross, without 
mockery, and they will, I am sure, cease to be duped, 
by lying spirits. Infidels may laugh and call us simple- 
tons, but the devil is cute. He holds them in his nets, 
and to keep them quiet, he cheats them out of their 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 319 

wits, and makes them believe that there is no devil. I 
do dot affirm that there is any direct intervention of 
satan in the doings of spiritualists, but I affirm that the 
devil is at work in persuading them to advocate and 
propagate the most dangerous form of superstition and 
unbelief. 

Out of many conversations which I have held with 
spiritualists I will relate only one which I have heard 
between a medium and a methodist preacher, and 
which I continued after the departure, (I might say the 
discomfiture) of the protestant minister. It took place 
in a railroad accommodation car. Everybody knows 
that people generally stand face to face in accommo- 
dation cars, and that the rate of speed is the reverse of 
lightening trains. Travelers are thereby prone to sleep 
or to talk. The methodist preacher, a good looking 
gentleman, stood by the side of the spiritualist, a 
female medium, highly gifted with conversational 
powers and unceremoniously asked if she was a 
member of the methodist church. No, sir, said the 
medium, I am a spiritualist. Then followed a long 
talk on getting religion, on the change of heart, on the 
parable of Lazarus, etc., etc. Finally the spiritualist 
said : I want a medium between God and man, and the 
only reliable mediums are spirits in communication* with 
spirits. 

Methodist Preacher. — We have the Holy Bible. That 
is our Medium to know God and his saving truth. 

Spiritualist. — The Bible is a holy book, but it is noth- 
ing more than a book. It is abused by every preacher 



320 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

who boasts that he preaches the word of God, when in 
reality he preaches his own opinions as heavenly tiniths. 
The Bible is mute. It will never change its shape to 
.answer our doubts. I want a living Medium between 
God and Man. 

Methodist Preacher — (with a long sigh!) — My dear 
sister I am sorry, extremely sorry, that you make so 
little of the Bible, that dear book that enlighteneth 
every understanding, and which our dear Saviour has 
commanded us to search. 

Spiritualist, — I think as much of the Bible as you do, 
but I am tired of listening to preachers who tell me to 
search the scriptures, and who give themselves as Me- 
diums between God and Man to explain Avhat God has 
written. You are not a Medium, no preacher is a Me- 
dium, and what I want is a living Medium between 
God and Man. 

Methodist Preacher. — Our dear Saviour, our dear 
Lord is the Medium that you want. 

Spiritualist. — Our Lord was a medium in His days. 
He has proved it by miracles and prophecies ; but 
lie is now in Heaven, and preachers are not new 
Messiahs. What Mediums are men who pretend to 
preach in his name ! I have as much right to preach 
to you as you to me. (That was plain language and 
strong argument.) Confess that you are not a Medium 
and you will be forced to acknowledge that spiritual- 
ism is the best religion, the simplest religion, the most 
rational of all religions. (I was tempted to interfere 
and to add that it was also the cheapest religion ; but 



CATHOLIC ]MISSIONAKY WITH AMERICANS. 321 

on second tliought, I kept incognito, to hear the end of 
that strange controversy.) 

Methodist Preacher, — You have no warrant from the 
scriptures that spirits communicate with men. It is 
all illusion. 

Spiritualist. — I beg your pardon, sir, tlie Bible is 
clearly on our side ; but if you wish to argue from the 
scriptures, let me ask you can you show me in the 
Bible that Methodist preachers, that Baptist preachers, 
that Presbyterian and Congregationalist preachers, 
that Episcopalian and ITniversalist preachers, that any 
preachers have a right from God to twist the Bible into 
a confirmation of their favorite theories and human 
creeds, and to place themselves as Mediums between 
God and man ? 

Methodist Preacher. — It is an unfortunate thing that 
there are so many divisions and variations in the 
christian world. That evil comes from a want of 
piety. Let us pray to the Lord, and pray with fervor, 
and the Lord, in his mercy, will enlighten his elect. 
Holiness and piety, such are the signs and the marks of 
truth. Holiness and piety are the seal by which we 
know the true ministers of God and the true ministers 
of His church. 

Sjnrittcalist. — That is all cant and hypocrisy. The 
Pharisees thought themselves more perfect than their 
neighbors, but our Lord has rebuked their pride and 
preferred the publican to the men of long prayers. Do 
you think that Methodists are the only christians wlio 
pray ? The only christians who ai*e holy ? If you 



322 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

tliink so, let me tell you that it is — I will not tell what. 
You have no right to condemn yom' neighbors who 
make use of the Bible, to the best of their abilities, as 
well as Wesleyan Methodists. Protestants are all 
right or they are all wrong. They are not all right, 
t^ince they hold contradictory doctrines, one affirming 
what the other denies. They are, therefore, all wrong, 
and we must have new revelations to know the true 
religion. That new revelation has come at last through 
the ministering spirits who converse Avith us, to let us 
know the truth and the whole truth. 

Methodist Preacher. — Your confession that your reve- 
lations are new is precisely what condemns you. What 
is new in religion is not true, and what is true is not new. 

Spiritualist. — On that principle, your own creed is 
equally false, for it is quite new. It goes no further 
than John Wesley. On that princi]3le, all protestants 
are condemned, for they are not older than Luther and 
Calvin. Yonr principle is the axiom of Jesuits, which 
leads to Romanism. I believe, for my part, that God 
enlightens us as he pleases, and when^he pleases, and 
I am thankful to him that he has at last manifested his 
will through spiritual Mediums. 

Here the conductor shouted M. M. Junction, and 
the Methodist preacher left ns. As the train moved 
on, I considered it my duty to occupy the seat of the 
reverend gentleman and to fight the Spiritualist Medi- 
um on Catholic principles. I had not to wait long be- 
fore Mrs. M opened her mouth. Are you a min- 
ister of the Gospel ? said she. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 323 

Missionary. — Yes, Madam, I have listened with great 
attention to your discussion with our good friend, 
ind I must say that you liave held your ground ad- 
mirably. 

Spiritualist. — I am death on all ministers. I do not 
mean to offend you, but I feel, and I must say frankly 
and openly that ministers do not understand the scrip- 
tures better than other people. Some Imve a good 
sliare of learning, but learning does not establish a 
privilege in their favour. The more I reflect upon it, 
and upon the prejudices and divisions which disgrace 
Christianity, the more I feel the necessity of living me- 
diums between God and man, 

Missionanj. — There is a deep fmid of philosoj)hy in 
your remarks. I agree with you that we need living 
mediums, which I call a living authority. You are 
right in throwing the whole set of Protestant preachers 
overboard. They have no mission from God. They 
are mere lecturers who create divisions and subdivis- 
ions amongst christians, instead of propagating truth, 
and promoting unity. They are wolves in sheeps' 
clothing, and false prophets who have not entered 
through the door. 

Spiritualist. — I judge from your words that you are 
not a Protestant minister. May I enquire if you are a 
Mormon missionary or a Universalist preacher ? 

Missionary. — Nothing of the kind, thanks be to God. 
I am a Catholic Priest, and as such, I claim to be such 
a medium as you look for, a living medium between 
God and man. 



824 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Spiritualist. — Are you indeed one of those men who 
claim to have the power of forgiving sins ? 

Missionary. — As men, we beg forgiveness for om^ 
own failings, but as ministers of God, lawfully ordain- 
ed, we have received the power to forgive sins. Jesus 
Christ exercised that power, to the great scandal of 
the Jews, and he has given it to his Apostles and to 
their successors. There is nothing plainer or more ex- 
plicit than that in the whole Bible. 

Spiritualist. — I like to know upon vv^hat ground you 
claim to be the successors of the Apostles, and by what 
right you forgive sins. God alone has the power to 
forgive sins, and he alone can give that extraordinary 
power. 

Missionary. — The Apostles have unquestionably re- 
ceived the power to forgive sins, without ceasing to be 
men. To answer your question, I have to j^rove that 
the Aj^ostles had successors in office. If the Ministers 
of the Catholic Church are the lawful successors of the 
Apostles, divinely sent to continue the work of the 
Apostles as the Apostles were divinely sent to continue 
the work of Jesus Christ, all other Mediums besides 
those appointed by Jesus Christ and then by the Apos- 
tles, and in the course of time, by the lawful successors 
of the Apostles are Mediums between the devil and 
man, instead of being mediums between God and man. 

Spiritualist. — I have read the scriptures throughout, 
and I do not recollect to have found anywhere that 
the Apostles were to have successors. Where do you 
find that stran o-e doctrine ? 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 325 

Missionary — The word strange would better apply to 
your doctrine of spirit-rapping and to all the doctrines 
of innovators who endeavor to remodel Christianity. 
The Catholic doctrine is the old doctrine, the doctrine 
of the immense majority of Christians and the doctrine 
of the Bible. To conline myself to the scriptures, let 
me refer you to the words of our Lord, who said to his 
Apostles : " As the Father has sent me, I also send 
you." (John xx, 21.) Weigh his words. Was not 
our Saviour sent to send men with power to preach, to 
baptize, to forgive sins, and above all to consecrate 
bread and wine into his body and blood ? The Apos- 
tles were therefore sent, even as Jesus Christ was sent, 
to send men with the same power. Our Saviour lias 
said moreover to the Apostles : Go teach all nations ; 
I am with you, all days, even to the consummation of 
the world. (Matt, xxviii. 20.) But how could our 
Saviour be with his Apostles, all days, even to the con- 
summation of the world, if they were not to have suc- 
cessors in office ? The acts of the Apostles show us 
accordingly Paul and Barnabas ordaining priests in 
every church ? (Acts xiv. 22.) The Epistles of St- 
Paul to Timothy and Titus, establish the same doc- 
trine. With regard to the fact that the ministers of the 
Catholic Church are the lawful successors of the Apos- 
tles, it is as easy to trace their spiritual genealogy, as 
far as the Apostles, as it is to reach the roots of a tree 
by going from the leaves to the branches, from the 
branches to the trunk 5 and from the trunk to the roots. 

Spiritualist. — I have seen what you call the Apostol- 
28 



326 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

ical tree. Heretics are represented by withered branches 
separated from the trunk. It is an ingenious way to 
express the pretensions of your church, but you know 
that all protestants are a unit to proclaim that the whole 
trunk was rotten, and that nothing w^as^sound, except 
the roots. They vindicate the separation from the old 
church, on the ground that it had fallen into gross 
errors and wicked practices, and that the ministers of 
that church had lost then' power, by falling into super- 
stition and idolatry, and countenancing all the abomi- 
nations predicted by St. John in the Apocalypse. They 
call your Church the whore of Babylon and your Pope 
and his Bishops Antichrist. 

Alissionary . — I have often conversed with infidels, 
wKo follow up to its last consequence the argument 
of Protestants, and who conclude that our Savior was 
an imposter. If the premises of protestants be true, 
the conclusion of infidels is undeniable. Our Savior 
has clearly foretold and promised that the gates of hell 
shall not prevail against his church. If his church has 
fallen, he falls with it ; but if Jesus Christ be God, and 
the Bible the word of God, the world will pass away, 
but his word wijl not pass away. The wind may blow, 
the waters may fall, but his house wdll stand, because it 
is built on a rock. He who believes the divinity of 
Jesus Christ, and you confessed, at least, that he was a 
true Medium, between God and man, he who believes 
that the Bible is the word of God, must be blind or im- 
pudent to contradict Jesus Christ and to deny what he 
reads : that the gates of hell shall not prevail against 



CATHOLIC .MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 327 

his church, that he will be Avith his apostles, all days, 
even unto the consummation of the world, and that 
the church is the " pillar of truth.'' Those who sup- 
pose that the ministers of the church can lose their 
power, ought to remember that the ministry is the salt 
of the earth and the light of the world: It is, says the 
great Bossuet, with the ministers as with our eyes. If 
our eyes are sore, they may be cured ; but if the eyes 
are entirely gone, if the sight is lost, God alone, by a 
miracle, can restore the blind to the enjoyment of 
light. 

Spiritualist. — That is precisely what we need and 
what we look for. All ministers have failed, and we 
look for light, in the revelations of spirits, who com- 
municate with us, through the mercy of God. 

Missionary, — You forget that Jesus Christ has 
promised to be with his apostles all days, even unto 
the consummation of the world. Should your spirits 
manifest themselves, in a visible manner, as bright as 
the sun, I Avould say they are wicked spirits and de- 
mons and nothing else. The Clmrch of Christ is to 
last forever. He who does not hear the Church shows 
thereby that he is under the influence of bad spirits. 
(1 John, vi, G.) 

Sjnritualist. — I tliought that Catholics favored our 
religious views. I liked your communion of Saints, 
and the principle that the true church is guided by the 
Holy Ghost ; but it now seems to me that you make 
your Pope and Bishops superior to the Holy Ghost, 
and that you account for their infallibility by virtue of 



• 



328 OONVEKSATIONS OF A 

their office in the church. God alone is infallible, and 
to know his will I prefer to rely on the guidance of 
spirits than on the definitions of men who have never 
crossed the threshold of life. 

Missionary. — I hope that you will study the Catholic 
doctrine ; you perhaps misunderstand and certainly 
misrepresent the origin of infallibility. Our Pope and 
Bishops derive their infallibility from the perpetual as- 
sistance of the Holy Ghost, according to the promises 
of Jesus Christ. ^' He who hears you, hears me ;" 
said our Lord, " He who despiseth you, despiseth me, 
and he who despiseth me, despiseth him who has sent 
me." (Luke x. 16.) The more you will investigate 
the sublime prerogatives and divine privileges of the 
Church, the more apparent it will become that your 
Circles and Fraternities are not the work of God, and 
that your Spiritualism^ instead of leading to God, leads 
to the extinction of good morals and to downright in- 
fidelity. 

The Spiritualist had arrived to the end of her jour- 
ney. On leaving the cars she had the kindness to wish 
me a pleasant journey and comfortable quarters in the 
land of spirits. Being now alone, I reflected on the 
strange form of error introduced by modern Spiritual- 
is7n. I Avondered at the deceits of the spirit of error 
who, at time?, seeks to persuade worldly people that 
death is the end of man as of brutes ; and at other 
times transforms himself into an angel of light, to lead 
men to irreligion and libertinism by a superstitious 
communication with him, through fantastical spirits 



CATHOUO MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS, 329 

As in ancient times, deluded Pagans were deceived by 
false oracles, in our days, misguided people, who reject 
the authority of the Church of God, are duped by new 
Sibyls under the name of Medkcms. Materialism is 
too abject, too irrational, too repugnant to the nature 
of man to satisfy the human heart and intellect. What 
is matter, cold, senseless, motionless, lifeless matter 
without spirit? The beautiful body of Adam was but 
a corpse and a statue until God breathed life into it and 
animated it with a soul created to his own image 
and likeness. Our soul is a spirit, and that spirit, to 
enjoy happiness, must be in communion with God, the 
spirit of holiness and truth. But alas ! there are created 
spirits, who have rebelled against God, their creator, 
and who are not of God. " Dearly beloved," wrote 
St. John, " believe not every spirit ; try the spirits 
whether they be of God. He that is not of God, hear- 
eth us not." (I. John, iv.) -wThis is the criterion of 
Catholic truth, " to hear the church^ When the Holy 
Ghost came down upon the Apostles, under the form 
of cloven tongues, as it Avere, of fire, he changed those 
men who could not pray, who could not suffer, who 
could not understand the words of Christ, into saints, 
doctors and martyrs. The same Holy Spirit vivified 
the church. Without the Paraclete, the church would 
be a lifeless body, as the body of a man without a soul, 
but through the vivifying light and graces of the Holy 
Ghost, the church is one and holy. He who hears the 
church is in communion with God, with holy angels, 
with the saints of Heaven, with all holy spirits who are 
28^ 



330 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

of God ; " but he who hears us not,'' says St. John, ^' is 
not led by the spirit of truth, but by the spirit of er- 
ror." (St. John, iv.,^ 6.) 

May that Holy Spirit of holiness and truth enlighten 
our understanding and strengthen our will, and as early 
christians by their j)rayers and holiness, silenced the 
oracles of Pagans, (i) the holiness and prayers of true 
believers will, in our days, silence and conquer " our 
adversary, the Devil, who goeth about as a roaring 
lion, seeking whom he may devour." (1. Pet. v. 8.) 



(1.) For proofs see Rollins History, Book X, Chap, in of Oracles. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY VVITII AMERICANS. 331 



CHAPTER IX. 

MOKMOXISM, SOCIALISM, IRliELlGIOUS I'HILANTHilOPISM. 

Know also this, that, in the hist days, shall come dangerous 
times. Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, 
proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, v^icked, 
* * * having the appearance of^piety, but denying the pow- 
er thereof JSTow, these avoid. For of this sort are they who 
creep into houses and lead captives silly women loaden with 
sins, who are led away with diverse desires. (2 Tim. iii. 1, 2, 
and 5, 6.) 

The late Archbishop Hughes, in his introduction to 
the work of the Abbe Martinet, entitled Religion in 
Society, describes with his ^^ell knowm masterly tact, 
the modern, crafty stratagems of unbelievers to prop- 
ogate errors. "Whoever, says the deep writer, has 
" paid any attention to the more recent w^anderings of 
"' the human mind, must have observed that within the 
"last quarter of a century, the system which the spirit 
" of error had previously adopted in making war on 
"truth, has been entirely changed. Formerly its ad- 
" vocates w^ere in the habit of af)pealing sometimes to 
" scripture, and at all times to human reason, in sup- 
" port of its destructive theories ; but the defenders of 
" truth pressing closely on its march, possessed of equal 
" ability and a better cause, had exposed its fallacies 
" and made it clear that both scripture and reason with 
" one voice repudiated its bad principles and false doc- 
" trines. Hence the change of tactics. At present the 



332 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

•^ajDpeals to scripture and to reason are few and feeble. 
" The advocates of error, who would regard it as a 
" merciful dispensation if religion w^ere once for all 
'' banished from the thouglits of men, have learned to 
*• disguise their enmity, and to speak of religion 
'Svith affected hypocrisy and expansive hollowness. 
" To attack the Holy Scriptures, they have discovered, 
^'-^vould be to sound the alarm. To appeal to reason 
'' for support, w^ould be to expose the thread-bare con- 
edition of their hopes, as well as their cause. Hence, 
'' the actual phase w^hich the spirit of error presents at 
" this moment, in its mode of Avarfare against God 
e and man, is different from anything that it has hither- 
•^ to exhibited. It now stoops to cajole, to flatter, to 
'^ enlist, to conciliate and* bring into coalition with it- 
"- self the mere sensual faculties, susceptibilities and 
" passions of our poor fallen nature. Having lost its 
" cause before the high tribunal of public reason to 
" which it had formerly appealed, it would now accept 
'^ a favorable verdict from the low animal feelings and 
" propensities by which man, especially when he in- 
" dulges them, is most nearly assimilated to the brute 
•^creation. It elevates tbe sentient faculties above 
" the intellectual, the loAvest attributes of our nature 
" above the highest, Avhich it treats with indifference, 
" or affects to ignore. It confines its zeal to the con- 
" dition of man in his present state and adjourns the 
e question of his eternal future. It sheds bitter tears 
'^ of sympathy over the miseries to which God, (that 
*• is, if it admits such a Being,) in the actjial economy. 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMEUICANS. 333 

*' has left liiin exposed. It insinuates and proclaims 
^' aloud, where it can do so with impunity, that, in 
'•' providing for the temporal well being of man, re- 
"ligion has proved recreant to its mission, and society 
" has abused and betrayed its trust. In contrast with 
" the actual inequalities and sufferings which afflict our 
" race, it spreads out before us its embellished and tempt- 
" ing theories of society organized on new and imaginary 
"principles. The family, the school, the guild, the 
" state, the church, all and each must be remodeled in 
" strict accordance with the wants, the Welshes, the 
" complex tastes, the sympathies, the varied suscepti- 
" bilities and special aptitudes of men and women in- 
" dividually considered, as they shall be found in this 
"Paradise regained" which the spirit of error is pre- 
" paring for the future abode of humanity. Yes, all 
" ' humanity,' no Divinity. A God, a Christ, Redemp- 
"tion, Revelation, Grace, Sacraments, a blessed and 
" beautiful connection between man's present condition 
" and his future state — these the spirit of error treats, 
" in the present day, with courtesy or silent indiffer- 
" ence or ill disguised contempt. It does not quarrel 
" with its dupes for believing and hoping in them all. 
" To do so, would be at variance equally with its policy 
" and its politeness. But to mitigate the strictness of 
" human and divine laws, to build palaces for the future 
"abode of the working classes, where hovels now 
" stand ; to hold out to them gilded promises of warm 
" clothing in winter and light dresses in summer, to 
" abridge their hours of labor and augment its compen- 



334 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

'' sation ; to economise thus abundant leisure, during 
" which ' humanity' may play on the piano and improve 
'' itself by reading reviews, novels and newspapers ; to 
'' anticipate and provide for a broad margin in domestic 
" aiid social manners on the central and dividing line 
" of which like shall meet like by sympathetic affinity 
'' and mutual attraction ; in short, to dazzle the eye and 
'^ seduce the heart of the suffering portion of our race 
•' by a cruel, because visionary, exhibition of such re- 
" suits which cannot be realized, and which, in many 
" respects, would be execrable if they could, is the 
'^ latest and actual system of warfare against both God 
" and man, which is now being proclaimed and carried 
*' on by the spirit of error and its living, speaking and 
" writing agents and advocates. 

" There is much low, mean cunning in this system. 
'' It erects humanity into the idol, and calls upon men 
" to reverence, worship and adore their own fallen na- 
'Hure. It does not mention the fact, that, in this 
'^ worship, the priest and the Deity are one and the 
'' same. The former swings the censor, it is true, but 
'' the fragrance of the burning incense loaches only his 
'^ own nostrils, for he is ' humanity.' " 

'^ God and Revelation, the Church, the Scripture, 
" and even reason, though not specially proscribed, are 
'' left out, or considered as topics of sheer indifference 
" in this new complex heresy, emanating not so much 
'' from the wandering of the human mind as from the 
^' passions of the human heart. It is known in differ- 
*'ent countries by different names; and the several 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 335 

" scliools into which its advocates are divided are con- 
" tending as to which will have the honor of giving it 
" ultimate stability of form and dimensions." 

The monstrous growth of Mormons in the United 
States, the astonishing diffusion of antisocial Socialism in 
the old world, and the open and secret machinations 
everywhere of deluded revolutionists to reform religion 
and society, are striking evidences of the correctness 
of the observations of the illustrious Archbishop. 
There is nothing new under the sun. It is the old war 
of passions against truth, but never before has the ap- 
peal to passions been so direct and more open than in 
our days. Seek first the kingdom of God and his jus- 
tice, says Jesus Christ. Seek first the things of this 
world, its joys and glory, says Anti-Christ, and with 
him all heathens, infidels and heretics : and alas ! this 
appeal to passions renders useless the plainest demon- 
strations and the most pressing arguments in favor of 
truth. It has been proved by a number of sworn wit- 
nesses, that the founder of Mormonism was an impos- 
tor and an infamous liar ; that the hooh of Mormon^ 
published in 1830, was nothing else than a romance 
written by one Solomon Spalding, about the year 1813, 
which a certain Rigdon, a printer, had copied by 
stealth, and which became by mysterious processes, 
the Mormon Bible ; it is beyond doubt that Brigham 
Young, who assumed the leadership of the Latter-Day 
Saints, after the tragical death of Hiram and Joseph 
Smith, is a traitor to his government and country, 
and that his Mohammedan doctrines on marriage are 



336 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

more barbarous than the doctrines of carnal Jews, and 
wild Indiana. But Mormons are blind, hopelessly blind, 
because they are the slaves of low sensual instincts. 
We may apply to them the remarks of the learned 
Moehler concerning the Gnostics : 

^* There are certainly few," says Moehlei", " who have 
" studied the Gnostic errors, that are not seized with the 
'^ deepest astonishment how their partisans could pos- 
"sibly deem their whimsical opinions the fantastic 
'' forms of their demonology, etc., to be Christiauj 
^' Apostolic doctrines, and many among us, perhaps, 
'^ believe that w^e could, in a single hour confute thou- 
" sands, of them by the Bible, and bring them back to 
" pure Christianity. So confident do they feel in their 
'^ superiority, that they were even disposed to accuse 
" their opponents of a want of dexterity, because they 
" did not succeed. But when once a peculiar system 
'' of moral life has been called into existence, should 
''' it even be composed of the most corrupt elements, 
'' no ordinary force of internal proof, no conclusion of 
'' ratiocination, no eloquence is able to^destroy it. Its 
^^ roots lie mostly too deep to be pervious to mortal 
^^ eye. It can only perish of itself, become gradually 
'- exhausted, spread its rays and disappear ; but as long 
" as it flourishes, all around is converted into a demon- 
'' stration in its favor. The earth speaks for it, and 
" the heavens are its warranty. They are, as it were, 
^^ enchanted and scales cover their eyes." (Moehler's 
Symbolism, p. 355.) 

A few words on the wealth of Mormons, on the place 



•CATHOLIC IMISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 837 

of their birth, and on their pecuUar form of govern- 
ment, will not be out of place, and without interest and 
significance in this chapter. The Mormons are now 
rich, and it is said that Brigham Young, their leader, 
can drop dollar for dollar, with any sovereign of Eu- 
rope. It is asserted and believed by many people that 
much of that wealth has been got up by rapine and 
murders ; that Brigham Young has been guilty of rob- 
bing U. S. soldiers of their pay at Council Bluffs, on 
the Missouri river, and that he has afterwards robbed 
and murdered a number of emigrants across the plains, 
by his Danites or emissaries, disguised as wild Indians, 
but, in justice to the Mormons, it must be stated that 
the great wealth of the fixlse prophet and of his people, 
can be accounted for by natui^al causes and legitimate 
means. The land emigration to California brought 
hundreds and thousands of teams as far as Salt Lake, 
and the poor Gentiles on reaching Utah readily paid 
large amounts of money to exchange worn out mules, 
oxen and horses for fresh animals. After a few months 
those same worn out animals were again in good con- 
dition and exchanged with great profit for living car- 
casses. The emigration to Montana and Idaho has, 
moreover, given to the Mormons an opportunity to sell 
their grains and provisions at fabulous prices. As God 
rewarded formerly the old Pagan Romans for then* na- 
tural and imperfect virtues, it is just that he would now 
reward in this world, the deluded followers of Joseph 
Smith for their few good deeds. 

With regard to birth, the Mormons are mostly 
29 



338 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Swedes, Danes, Norwegians and Scotch ; next to them, 
in number, are Germans, Swiss and Americans. They 
had only wnth them in 1866 three Italians, two French, 
and one brother of Don Quixote. The w^omen are 
also mostly from Scandinavia, Germany and Switzer- 
land 5 Mexico and the United States have supplied the 
Saints with a considerable number of wives. Italy had 
furnished eight, Spain two, and Greece one. Not 
one French woman has ever joined the Mormons. It 
may be further remarked that a great many of Mor- 
mon converts were tailors and shoemakers in the old 
world. 

The Mormon torm of Government is half Mohamme- 
dan, half Christian. Their discipline is rigid and their 
policy a perpetual martial laic. Brigham Young is 
King atid Prophet, more independent in his territory, 
than Indian Chiefs in the wilderness. He defies the 
United States. " I have no fear," said he, (as reported 
in his own newspapers,) " of Franklin Pierce removing 
" me from office and saying that another man shall be 
" Governor of this Territory. We have got a Territo- 
'' rial Government, and I am and will be Governor, and 
^'no power can hinder it until the Lord Almighty says : 
<« Brigham, you need not be Governor any longer 
*^ Then I am willing to yield to another." In 1857, 
troops were sent to Utah, under Colonel Johnston, 
but the expedition ended in a clever Yankee trick, 
played on Uncle Sam by the shrew^d Mormon Ver 
monter, Brigham Young. The Saints agreed to build 
barracks for the United States soldiers, and to supply 



CATil^OLlC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 339 

them with provisions, and tlie United States Treasury 
has paid the bill ! 

If Brighani Young had founded liis Holy Zioii in 
Asia or Africa, there would be no more need of con- 
futing his en-ors than those of Confucius or Mohamed. 
But he lives in the United States and his extraordinary 
genius and rare talents to gain disciples from every race 
and language are a pretty siire foreboding that his 
Kingdom will not end without a severe struggle with 
the Gentiles, unless God, in his mercy, call him soon to 
an account. A missionary priest will now and then, 
meet with some adept or agent of the false prophet. 
The following conversation with an Elder of the Holy 
Zion embodies what Mormons generally reply to the 
Gentiles who attack their peculiar religious and social 
theories. That Elder of the New Dispensation was 
an eccentric fellow, who amused himself with telling 
his neighbors that he had been in heaven and hell, and 
in Purgatory, and that he could unravel everything 
about the next world. I met him in a blacksmith 
shop. There, said the blacksmith, (an Irishman,) our 
Reverend Pastor is coming, will you have a talk with 
his Reverence ? Oh, yes, said the Mormon. As I went 
in the good blacksmith grasped my hand, saying at the 
same time I am very glad, sir, to have your Reverence 
face to face with a Mormon Elder. I will make you ac- 
quainted with Mr. X. He boasts that he knows more 
about the next world than any living human being. 

Missionarij. — I have been informed that we had a 
Mormon in our settlement, but I could hardly believe it. 



340 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

Mormon. — I liope, doctor, that you are not afraid to 
have a Mormon in j'our neighborhood. We may dis- 
agree on some points which relate to the world, bat we 
agree on the state of souls, in the next world. We 
believe, with your church, that there is a purgatory be- 
sides Heaven and Hell. 

Missionary. — So, you believe in Purgatory ! May I 
inquire how you make out . your proof that there is 
such a place in the next vf orld ? 

Iformon. — I can easily prove it. I have no need 
of scriptures. Sui3posing that I would die on a sud- 
den, I believe that I am not so wicked as to be thrown 
headlong into hell, but I confess that I am not so per- 
fect as to go straight to Heaven. Where, then, will 
you send me, except to Purgatory or some place 
like it ? - 

Missionary. — I iear that you vfill be detained there a 
very long while, and 23erhaps fare worse ; for Mormons 
stand a better chance to go with Mohammedans than 
with Christians. 

Mormon. — You speak so because we advocate polyg- 
amy, but Mormons, after all, treat women far better 
than the generality of men who revile our institutions- 

Missionary. — I do not see how you make out that 
point. 

Moi-mon. — You a*"e aware that in every State of the 
Union when a man is tired of his wife he procures a 
bill of divorce and sends her away. Would it not be 
fairer and more lionest to have two or more wives and 
support them, than to turn one away as an outcast, to 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 341 

take another ? You are aware also that m every city, 
of any size, there are public women who live a wretch- 
ed and miserable life. Policemen or constables wil[ 
now and then pounce upon them to exact a fine or 
rather a tax of ten or twenty dollars for the benefit of 
the coriDoration, and after fleecing them unmercifully, 
turn them loose in the streets to continue their trade. 
Would it not be wiser and more honorable if men who 
want more than one wife, and if men who have no 
wives, would marry in earnest those forlorn creatures, 
and marry as many wives as they can support and raise 
children for the church and the State 1 It is the glory 
of Mormons that they discountenance debauchery and 
the shameful traffic of prostitution. 

Missionarij. — Your reasoning does not prove your as- 
sertion. Divorce is a great evil ; Prostitution is a 
greater evil, but Polygamy remains notwithstanding an 
intolerable iniquity. A woman cannot be happy if she 
does not possess the whole heart of her husband. Jeal- 
ousies and strifes are inevitable in a harem. But leav- 
ing aside natural considerations against polygamy, we 
have the clear and positive law of our blessed Lord 
Jesus Christ. To disobey that law is an open and 
wicked rebellion against God. 

Mormon. — God who had permitted polygamy in the 
old testament, may, no doubt, authorize it, (i-) and 

(1.) Long before Brigham Young, the Anabaptists of Germany main- 
tained ana practiced polygamy. John Bockhold, a tailor of Leyden, the 
prototype of Young, who proclaimed himself King of Sion, and who dur- 
ing a certain time, was really sovereign of Munster, married eleven wives 
at a time, at the motion of his supposed interior spirit. (Mosheim Eccl. 
Treat, by Maclaine, Vol. 4, p. 452.) 

The great ! reformers I3ruce, Luther and Meianchton allowed the Land- 

20* 



342 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

has, in lact, authorized it by a new revelation, to cor- 
rect the evils of our age. King David and the good 
patriarchs of old times were certainly not guilty of any 
rebellion against God. 

Missionary, — There has never been since the advent 
of our Lord, and never will be anything like a new re- 
velation or a new dispensation. The gospel of Jesus 
Christ is to last forever, and our Lord has promised to 
be with his Apostles, all days, even to the consumma- 
tion of the world. He has perfected w^hat was imper- 
fect in the old testament, consecrated the indissolubil- 
ity of the bond of marriage and abolished forever po- 
lygamy. 

Mormon. — You do not believe that God has made new 
revelations, to our prophets, but I believe it firmly 
and those revelations will stand in spite of armies, and 
of the whole world. 

Missionary. — I Vv^onder at your zeal for Mormonism. 
JOe Smith or Brigham Young liave never performed 
miracles, like Moses or the Apostles, to prove their 
mission. It has been demonstrated by 'sworn witnesses, 
that Joseph Smith deserved no credity-and that he did 
not himself believe what he asserted. To talk plain 
language, the Mormons are dupes, who are imposed 
"upon by shrewd leaders, and you are yourself too 
clever not to laugh at the credulity/ of your Teutonic 
converts. 



grave of HesBia, Piiilip, to biive two wives at tiie eame time ; '"'for the sal- 
vation of his body and soul and for the glory of God .'" gays the' document 
Bl.sjned by them. (The document may be seen in full in Bossuet's Hist- 
of Vurlations, Book VI.) 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. oio 

Mormon. — AVell, doctor, you are prejudiced against 
us. It is a personal affair and a matter of conscience. 
Every body has a right to his own convictions, and 
must be guided by them. 

Missionary. — As far as you are individually concern- 
ed, Mormonism is a personal affair, but I am afraid 
that it will become, in time, a national affair of a seri- 
ous nature. Adieu. 

I left with a sorrowful heart on seeing the blindness 
of men v/ho can be led astray by such a humbug as the 
Book of Mormon. 

After the Mormons had been expelled from Nauvoo, 
in Illinois, a colony of French Socialists, under the 
leadership of Cabet, established itself on the premises 
of the prophet. Socialism has not yet taken root in 
America, and died with Cabet. Americans are too 
wise to dream that perfect equality is possible on earth, 
or that a man can be free, by establishing overseers to 
control his labor and regulate his household. The 
greatest folly that has entered into the brain of man 
is to abolish property, as a means of promoting liberty 
and equality. The Socialists' problem of liberty, fra- 
ternity and equality, is to constitute society on mon- 
astic principles. It supposes more religion in society 
than there is in a cloister, and an infinitely greater ab- 
negation in the President of their Republic than in the 
prior of a convent. Hence they all foolishly assert the 
perfectibility of man. Monks in monasteries hold their 
property in commmon ; they own, individually, nothing. 
Order, liberty and liappine'^s are not .incompatible 



344 CONVERSATIONS OF A 

with their voluntary poverty and religious obedience 
as long as a true christian spirit animates the whole 
community, but even monks, who have renounced 
the world, would soon taste the bitter fruits of anar- 
chy and despotism, if they degenerated from the holi- 
ness of their vocation. Socialists, w^ho have no re- 
ligion, and who, like Deists, base order on self-inter- 
est, could not enjoy peace for one hour in their 
Utoj)ian Republic. Their theory is beautiful, their 
calculations are perfect, their promises magnificent, but 
they forget that man is full of passions which religion 
alone can control. Instead of liberty, they would in- 
troduce the most horrible slavery ; instead of equality, 
the most shocking inequality ; instead of fraternity, 
hatred, murders and civil wars. Christian Philanthro- 
phy, which is Charity, is the source of all good ; the 
spring of liberty and fraternity : Human philanthro- 
phy, infidel and antichristian philanthrophy is an 
empty bubble. In its vain endeavors to improve man- 
kind, to change the world into a heavenly paradise, 
and to regenerate society, it has never produced and 
never will produce anything better than ruins, revo- 
lutions and bloodshed. He that is not with me, is 
against me, says Jesus Christ, and he that gathereth 
not with me, scattereth. (Luke xi., 23.) 

CONCLUSION. 

We have seen that God has created us to his own 
image, that we may know him, serve and love him with 
our whole heart ; and that he has manifested His holy 



CATHOLIC MISSIONARY WITH AMERICANS. 345 

will, through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, 
true God and true man. Infidelity is therefore a folly, 
a misfortune and a crime. It is a folly, because rea- 
son is ashamed of the vain systems and weak objec- 
tions of unbelievers; it is a misfortune, because re- 
ligion alone can give us as individuals and as members 
of society true happiness, in this and in the next world ; 
it is a crime, because God is our Lord now and forever. 
Woe to the proud Lucifer who rejects his word and 
rebels against him I " Whosoever shall fall on this 
stone, shall be broken : but on whomsoever it shall 
fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matth. xxi. 44.) 

THE END. 



EKPvATA. 



44 


" 23, 


48 


" r^ 


CI 


" 20, 


71 ' 


" IG. 



105 ' 


'' <^j 


107 


u 3 


lis 


" 15, 


14G 


" 13, 


14S ' 


•' S 


152 ' 


'♦ 20, 



Line 11, Read—'-' with this" iiistcid of '• wilh that." 
•' 22, '' '• nor " instead of "or." 
" 12, " " but even than the" instead of " than the.'' 
" de'fy " instead of " defy." 
•'as remarked by" instead of '• lias re- 
marked." 
" too rapid" instead of •' to rapid." 
•• or the other according to motives" instead 

of " by motives." 
84 " 10. '• •• to oppose to" •• instead of - to s:ibstitnte 

for." 
yi " 14, '• '• Des Mains which saddened" instead of 

* ' Desalanirs which Moemed.' 
" the Indian of" instead of " the Indians of.'' 
•' ^avc to the " instead of " gave the," 
"explain" instead of "explained." 
" less diffident" instead of "less timorous." 
•' ^vere" instead of " was." 
" destroy— op)press " instead of '• destroys— 

oppresses." 
102 " 2, " "without a more" instead of '•without 

more." 
•' tliere the hospital sister." 
"farther, the religious" instead of "there 

the religious." 
'• treatises" instead of "'treaties." 
" besides divine inspiration." 
" as man" instead of "that man." 
" of Adam" instead of "man." 
'• to the hatred of" — " to the violation of '^ 

instead of " violating." 
•• executioners" instead of "executors." 
" believe" instead of "believes." 
" love of truth " instead of " right of truth.'* 
" does not " instead of " do not." 
" Mss. " instead of " Mrs." 
" the worldly-wise" instead of '■ all worldlj- 

wise." 
•' S')cinus" Instead of "Sociu." 



173 


" 18, 


173 


" 20. 


183 


" 29, 


188 


" 11, 


192 


" 13, 


102 


•• 13, 


207 


'-'3 


217 


" 18, 


220 


" 25, 


235 ' 


" 7, 


235 


'• 8, 


271 


" 2, 


275 


" 0. 


28:; 


" 0, 


283 


" n. 


285 ' 


=' i:*. 



CONTENTS. 



Preface, 3 

Chapter I.— Irreligion, 7 

Chapter II.— Infidelity in General ; Skepticism, Free- 
Thinking, Philosophism, Indifference in 

Religions Matters, 13 

Chapter III. — Atheism, Pantheism, Transcendentalism,. . 37 

Chapter IV.— Materialism, 57 

Chapter V. — Fatalism and all Errors against Free Will, 67 

Chapter YI. — Deism, Rationalism, Secret Societies, 83 

Article I. — Origin and History of Deism, 83 

Article II. — Insufficiency of Reason and Necessity of 

Divine Revelation, 97 

Article III. — Natm-al Religion, 118 

Article lY. — Divinity of the Christian Religion, 127 

Article Y. — Objections of Deists, 181 

Ai'ticle YI.— Secret Societies, 269 

Chapter YII. — Socinianism, Universalism, etc., 283 

Aiticle I.— General Remarks, 283 

Article II. — Anti-Christianity of Socinians and Uni- 

versalists, 287 

Article III- Fundamental Errors of Socinians and 
Humanitarians : Denying the Divinity. 

of Jesus Christ, 295 

Article lY. — Another Fundamental Error of some Uni- 

versalists : Denying Hell, 300 

Article Y.— Another Fundamental Error of Univer- 

salists : Denying the Eternity of Hell, 304: 

Chapter YIII. — Mesmerism, Spiritualism, 313 

Chapter IX. — Mormonism, Socialism, IiTeligious Phil- 

anthropism, 331 

Conclusion, 344 



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